Do you think consciously about structure?

buz · Aug 24, 2016

I was talking with a friend last night, wherein she asked me about inserting subplots. I told her that I have only a hazy notion of what a subplot consists of, and don't think about them consciously, for better or for worse . . . but then I wondered . . . maybe I do. Maybe I do think of subplots consciously, but just don't know what to call them in my head. Maybe what I'm referring to in my head as "character arc" contains these subplots, but I don't realize it.

Likewise, I don't know if I completely understand the structuring of a plot, or how to put together three acts, and that sort of thing. I have been introduced to the concept of scenes and sequels, but I haven't . . . thought about them, as such, with explicit consideration, in a very long time.

I started wondering if my stories suffer as a result, on the whole. I honestly can't say . . . sometimes betas say things that make me think they do, that I end up accidentally building fatal flaws in structure and plot as a result of my thoughtlessness. Sometimes betas say there is no issue, though, so I'm not sure. Maybe it depends on the story; every one turns out differently. But I started thinking maybe I should endeavor to understand this stuff better and keep it in mind more purposefully, more consistently. Then again, maybe I already do it more than I think I do -- without realizing, without knowing the name of what I'm considering.

So, anyway, I was wondering (realizing there isn't a "right" answer, just curious) -- how many people think consciously, purposefully, about structure, acts, scenes and sequels, whether you have inserted the appropriate amount of subplots, etc? Or do you just sort of . . . wing it? Or something in between, where you don't really have defined ideas about the structure but you know you need to make things worse right *there* and then use the thingamajig from the first bit to create the solution for the last bit, etc?

And if you do, unlike me, have a decent grasp of structure (or whatever I am calling "structure"--I'm not even sure if that's the right word, lol), is there somewhere you got it from? A book or article to recommend?

Chandelle · Aug 24, 2016

I don't, really, but I also don't plan.

As far as character arcs go, I have an idea of what my MC is like at the beginning, and how I want her to be at the end, then I just make sure she becomes that way somehow.

But I wing everything I write, so maybe I'm not the best person to answer this.

buz · Aug 24, 2016

Chandelle said:
But I wing everything I write, so maybe I'm not the best person to answer this.

"I just wing it" is a perfectly legitimate and informative answer

Old Hack · Aug 24, 2016

I don't think consciously about anything when I'm writing. I just write the story I've found. And then I revise the socks off it, once I've finished.

MNLynx · Aug 24, 2016

My most successful stories come when I write the ending first then work toward that ending. This does not, of course, prevent characters from doing something I didn't expect when I started but it does give me a clue as to what we're doing in the hand basket and where we're going. At some point (okay, at a bunch of different points) in writing a story, I take the time to outline both main plot and subplots. As the story develops, I rewrite the outlines to check that I haven't inadvertently produced a red herring that is never explained or a situation that is never resolved.

As for recommended books, I suggest reading Barbara Kingsolver's novels. She is a master of plot and subplot. Prodigal Summer and The Poisonwood Bible come immediately to mind. Marcia Muller's mystery novels are also good examples of layering. A Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole may be the ultimate example of plots and subplots all coming together in the end for a single explosion of satisfaction.

BethS · Aug 24, 2016

buzhidao said:
how many people think consciously, purposefully, about structure, acts, scenes and sequels, whether you have inserted the appropriate amount of subplots, etc? Or do you just sort of . . . wing it?

I wing it. I couldn't write with any kind of freedom and creativity if I had to always be thinking about things like structure. That's not to say I'm not sometimes aware of what I'm doing, or have done. But that's more like observation, rather than planning.

And if you do, unlike me, have a decent grasp of structure (or whatever I am calling "structure"--I'm not even sure if that's the right word, lol), is there somewhere you got it from?

I got it mostly from all the stories and novels I read from the time I was a child. And also by some trial and error in the actual process of writing. I can usually tell pretty quickly if something is going down the wrong path or is out of place.

One book you might find helpful doesn't talk about the mechanics of structure, but about archetypal storytelling and characters, and the many and varied ways these archetypes can appear. It might help you approach the problem from a different angle. It's The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler

blacbird · Aug 24, 2016

No.

caw

VeryBigBeard · Aug 24, 2016

I don't think about structure very much when I'm writing, certainly not on first draft.

I think about it on revision, but as one of many things and usually in conjunction with pacing. There aren't really any "correct" structures and certainly no correct number of sub-plots. Every scene should advance some element of the story, preferably more than one, but the overall development can occur slowly or quickly depending on the needs of the book. An action thriller is going to have more tension than a mystery and I might well try to keep my scenes shorter on revision so as not to lose too much of the suspense. Or I might elongate a section where I know I've got an unanswered question and see how long I can sustain it.

Structure shouldn't, I don't think, be something you follow. It's not a template. It's just a tool to figure out why something feels off, and it's far from the only tool at our disposal.

A.E.Fisher · Aug 24, 2016

I don't have the popular opinion here, because I'm a planner. Because I tend to stick to SFF, and I have an intense hatred for books that throw their own mythology out the window for the sake of convenience, I plan out my novel pretty well before I get into the writing portion. I find I stay more focused when I have an outline, so that's what I do.

So when I outline my novel, I start with the beats for the main story arc. I have a good idea of who my characters are at the start, and how I'm going to get them across the finish line. Subplots that are directly related to the main arc are usually roughly sketched in next, and then the smaller ones I add as I write. This structure cuts down on my revisions because I have that frame set up going into the writing portion. I really, really hate revisions, so this is a bonus for me.

I have sat down and attempted to write by the seat of my pants, but those never turn out quite the way I want them, and are usually lost in revision hell.

Parametric · Aug 24, 2016

I plan the structure extensively in advance, often using a spreadsheet.

AnnieColleen · Aug 24, 2016

buzhidao said:
And if you do, unlike me, have a decent grasp of structure (or whatever I am calling "structure"--I'm not even sure if that's the right word, lol), is there somewhere you got it from? A book or article to recommend?

These are my favorites:

Story Structure blog series

Character Arc blog series

chompers · Aug 24, 2016

I think about pacing, and the structure naturally falls into place as a result of that.

I don't write subplots. Don't like to read them either.

Chase · Aug 24, 2016

Parametric said:
I plan the structure extensively in advance, often using a spreadsheet.

Yep. It's written on paper but not in stone, so I do go with the flow of interesting developments. Subplots are one.

Contrary to most preceding--though equally good--advice, I find it helpful to structure sentences and paragraphs before keying them onto my screen for revision. Takes a while, but it works okay for me.

Myrealana · Aug 24, 2016

A.E.Fisher said:
I don't have the popular opinion here, because I'm a planner. Because I tend to stick to SFF, and I have an intense hatred for books that throw their own mythology out the window for the sake of convenience, I plan out my novel pretty well before I get into the writing portion. I find I stay more focused when I have an outline, so that's what I do.

So when I outline my novel, I start with the beats for the main story arc. I have a good idea of who my characters are at the start, and how I'm going to get them across the finish line. Subplots that are directly related to the main arc are usually roughly sketched in next, and then the smaller ones I add as I write. This structure cuts down on my revisions because I have that frame set up going into the writing portion. I really, really hate revisions, so this is a bonus for me.

I have sat down and attempted to write by the seat of my pants, but those never turn out quite the way I want them, and are usually lost in revision hell.

I'm with you. I am very much a plotter. I have to have all my major plot points set into a framework before I start writing. Pantsing make my brain hurt.

I actively think about the inciting incident, the turning points, black moment, climax and resolution, and at what point each "beat" of the story should happen. Otherwise, I just wander off into lala-land and never get anywhere.

LDParker · Aug 24, 2016

I think my story in quarters (You could say four acts). I try to think of the major events in the story that I need to work towards and this helps keep my pacing roughly under control. A lot of the finer details don't come out, for me anyways, until I sit down to write.

lizo27 · Aug 24, 2016

Yes. I write mysteries, so maybe it's a bit different, but I structure my stories quite consciously and deliberately. In fact, plotting has always been my weak point, so deliberately following a particular structure really helps me to finish rather than puttering out in the middle.

Pingling · Aug 24, 2016

I'm so rebellious that I don't even follow my own instructions, or in this case, my own storyboard. As soon as I'm done with writing down the plot and fleshing out each chapter arc onto several pages, my mind goes "Nope" and I just start to wing it.

Cindyt · Aug 24, 2016

I wing it and structure it, because I'm Gemini like that.

MenoSilencio · Aug 24, 2016

Wing it. I also don't think about subplots, unless they're missing, which is very rare. They just pop up when I start editing, feels natural...
I wouldn't worry about it honestly, unless your beta readers are pointing stuff out.

Meno

ElaineA · Aug 24, 2016

Pingling said:
I'm so rebellious that I don't even follow my own instructions, or in this case, my own storyboard. As soon as I'm done with writing down the plot and fleshing out each chapter arc onto several pages, my mind goes "Nope" and I just start to wing it.

Well...maybe, but I suspect all of that jotting does lodge in the folds of the cortex somewhere. I feel like this is closest to my method (without the several pages of fleshing). It works well for the main plot. and maybe for jumping off points of "subplots" (in quotation marks because I'm not entirely clear on what is subplot vs. characterization-enhancing behavior), but I'm not sure my subplots don't just grow organically from the writing process. If I have subplots, that is. (What are they, again?) :e2bouncey

BethS · Aug 24, 2016

ElaineA said:
Well...maybe, but I suspect all of that jotting does lodge in the folds of the cortex somewhere. I feel like this is closest to my method (without the several pages of fleshing). It works well for the main plot. and maybe for jumping off points of "subplots" (in quotation marks because I'm not entirely clear on what is subplot vs. characterization-enhancing behavior), but I'm not sure my subplots don't just grow organically from the writing process. If I have subplots, that is. (What are they, again?)

A minor story arc that (usually) involves a secondary character. (Agent Don Maass said that if it's happening to the main character, it's a plot layer rather than subplot, but I think that's just playing with terminology. Plenty of people call that a subplot, too.) It should be related to the main plot, or complementary to it, or exploring some aspect of the novel's theme(s).

Think of the main plot as the tree trunk, and subplots as little branches growing off it, or as strange vines that come twining around, living off the host.

Silva · Aug 24, 2016

I don't think about it while I'm writing, but I think about it before and after.

Before I start writing the story, I need to have some idea of what the character wants, where they start out, and where they end up (maybe not physically, but emotionally). How they get there is still pretty flexible while I'm writing, and I often have to experiment with several different ideas before deciding what works best-- outlining typically isn't efficient for that reason; I need to do some actual writing to know what'll work and what just sounds good in my head. Sometimes where they end up and what they want changes too, but I need to start with something.

Before writing a given chapter or scene, I try to stop myself and think about what needs to be accomplished in this chapter in order to keep moving forward, and I try to think of something that will tie the chapter together thematically so it's not just a series of happenings (not very good at that part), and I try to take a moment to connect to the POV character, like how an actor takes some time to think about who they're stepping into.

After writing something, I think about where I'm going next and if where I just was works for that.

Subplots? I don't think I've ever thought about them consciously. Not even sure I could point out what is or isn't one in my stories, though I think I could in someone else's story. I've never considered them absolutely necessary, either, though maybe I'm wrong about that.

lenore_x · Aug 24, 2016

I think about some aspects of structure a lot, and some not at all. I usually keep the three-act structure in mind, and I tend to build the story around a midpoint reversal. Although because I'm a mix of plotter and pantser I almost never end up with that "midpoint" near the actual 50% mark. Usually it winds up being around 2/3. On my WIP I got the planned midpoint almost exactly in the middle and I was so stoked.

I will weave the protagonist's character arc in with the plot during a first draft, but I usually don't get to other characters' arcs until revision. And I don't worry about whether I have the "right" number of subplots, ever. If the important characters all have arcs, which they should anyway, that's enough for me.

I don't give much thought to scene-sequel. I often skip sequels.

My favorite sources for learning structure have been Fiction University and James Scott Bell's Plot and Structure.

Matt T. · Aug 24, 2016

Uh... kinda? I have a tendency to obsess about three act structure even if I don't follow it to the letter. What I've been doing lately is getting fixated on when events are happening in the novel, even going so far as to compare my current word count to the projected final word count to see if Act 1 ends around the 25% point, I get to the romance around the 40-45% mark, etc.

Needless to say, I think I'm going to cut down on that, as it's getting to be too much.

I don't give a ton of thought to scene structure, but I make a conscious effort to put reversals at the end of scenes wherever possible.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 24, 2016

I think about little else.

Having structure frees me. Firm scaffolding makes for a sturdy building.

Do you think consciously about structure?

buz

edits all posts at least four times

Chandelle

buz

edits all posts at least four times

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

MNLynx

I think, therefore I am... I think.

BethS

blacbird

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

A.E.Fisher

The first draft of anything is shit

Parametric

AnnieColleen

Invisible Writer

chompers

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Myrealana

I aim to misbehave

LDParker

lizo27

Speshul snowflake

Pingling

Cindyt

Gettin wiggy wit it

MenoSilencio

ElaineA

All about that action, boss.

BethS

Silva

saucy

lenore_x

Matt T.

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle