No Prison For Colorado State Rapist

Y'know, if the judge gave him life that concerns about his future would have been entirely resolved.

I wonder about the point of our punishment/consequence system.

Incarceration (or worse) can be viewed as serving the interests of deterrent, punishment, or the opportunity for rehabilitation, or some combination of the three. In the case of life sentences or the death penalty for murder, it's kind of hard to imagine someone resisting committing the murder they really want to commit due to the inhibitions of living under the threat of correctional consequences. Broadly, this is because the actual work of taking a life is either an extreme compulsion, an uncontrollable eruption, or a chance at a calculated benefit. And, in the case of a successful murder, you at least have the possible buffer of your victim not being in a position to talk about what happened. So, prison time and possible execution doesn't seem to be an effective deterrent for murder. What we have left is punishment and, in some degrees of murder or manslaughter, the possibility of rehabilitation.

I think impulsive and compulsive rape might very well work the same way in that it's a damaged fixation, a spontaneous strike, or a situation where the rapist has a reason to believe he won't get caught.

But this epidemic of opportunistic, casual, and drug-groomed rape might very well be curbed by the threat of consequence. I don't understand how our judicial system doesn't see that. If these young men saw other young men, in the news or on their campuses, going to prison for their crimes, we might actually reap a benefit of deterrent where we sadly can't in so many other types of violent crimes.

University of Colorado - Boulder is not Colorado State.
Colorado State University is a different college in Ft. Collins, CO.

This guy was a student at CU-Boulder.

I mention this because I was shocked initially reading that CSU had fallen to CU's standards. I remember CSU as being a far safer campus overall.

CU-Boulder is where I was raped as a sophomore. The campus police refused to take a report and turned the whole incident into a condemnation of my actions. It's sad to see things haven't progressed much in the last 20 years.

Perks said:

In the case of life sentences or the death penalty for murder, it's kind of hard to imagine someone resisting committing the murder they really want to commit due to the inhibitions in place by living under the threat of correctional consequences. Broadly, this is because the actual work of taking a life is either an extreme compulsion, an uncontrollable eruption, or a chance at a calculated benefit. And, in the case of a successful murder, you at least have the possible buffer of your victim not being in a position to talk about what happened. So, prison time and possible execution doesn't seem to be an effective deterrent for murder. What we have left is punishment and, in some degrees of murder or manslaughter, the possibility of rehabilitation.

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I wonder just how many people would commit murder if there were no serious consequences. I'm pretty sure there would be a lot more "s/he had it coming" killings if we looked at each killer sadly, and told them no, this is not good, then sent them on their way. The fact that some people are not deterred by legal penalties is not evidence that such penalties are not deterrents

You see murder as the result of "extreme compulsion," because that's what it takes today to overcome people's fear of destroying their lives.

Twick said:

I wonder just how many people would commit murder if there were no serious consequences. I'm pretty sure there would be a lot more "s/he had it coming" killings if we looked at each killer sadly, and told them no, this is not good, then sent them on their way. The fact that some people are not deterred by legal penalties is not evidence that such penalties are not deterrents

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Sure. There's no way to test the claim very far. But what we do have as an indication is that the death penalty, in the US, has been greatly restricted if not completely taken off the table as a penalty and the murder rates have decreased, not increased. So, it's not a wild speculation that the threat of the death penalty was not a deterrent to the actual crime of murder.

You see murder as the result of "extreme compulsion," because that's what it takes today to overcome people's fear of destroying their lives.

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I gave that as one motivation, along with crimes of passion and murder-for-benefit, in which I'd lump revenge, profit, and removing speedbumps to personal desires. I don't understand the second part of your sentence.

I think you far underestimate the number of people who may be tempted to commit murder, and yet stop to think, "You know, if I did, I'd really ruin my life. Getting that inheritance, fixing that cheating ****, wiping the smile off that annoying guy at work who bullies me, it's not worth it. I must find another solution."

If murder was dealt with by a lecture and a $50 fine, I suspect the rates would go up.

Also, I suppose I'm a bit of a moral purist, because I believe that if you *do* deliberately kill someone, your life *should* be ruined.

Twick said:

I think you far underestimate the number of people who may be tempted to commit murder, and yet stop to think, "You know, if I did, I'd really ruin my life. Getting that inheritance, fixing that cheating ****, wiping the smile off that annoying guy at work who bullies me, it's not worth it. I must find another solution."

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I suppose there's no way to know what people entertain in their heart of hearts. Although I might suggest that the mere toying with the notion is nothing like an actual murderous impulse. Woolgathering and wrapping your hands around someone's throat for squeezing are actually pretty far apart.

If murder was dealt with by a lecture and a $50 fine, I suspect the rates would go up.

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I have no idea, but it would certainly be a bizarre thing to do. Prison is an appropriate consequence for murder.

Also, I suppose I'm a bit of a moral purist, because I believe that if you *do* deliberately kill someone, your life *should* be ruined.

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I agree. Not sure if you think I wouldn't.


ETA -

This is all also a bit of a derail. You can agree with me or not on how much severe punishment is a deterrent for violent crime. (It still serves its purpose as consequence and, in some cases, possible opportunity for rehabilitation.) I offered the evidence that with the death penalty retracted, the murder rates have actually dropped. (And I should note that I don't think that's a causal relationship. There are other societal factors suspected of lowering the violent crime rates. I'm just saying that an arguably less severe penalty did not increase the number of people willing to risk a murder.)

But the point is, I think these opportunistic violations of consent, these "party" rapes, might actually be deterred, at least somewhat, if young men were being sent to prison for them. I think it's worth a try and, at the very least, it would have the appearance of leaning toward justice instead of the travesty of this inordinate concern for ruining the lives of these promising young assholes.

Twick said:

I think you far underestimate the number of people who may be tempted to commit murder, and yet stop to think, "You know, if I did, I'd really ruin my life. Getting that inheritance, fixing that cheating ****, wiping the smile off that annoying guy at work who bullies me, it's not worth it. I must find another solution."

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And I think you far over-estimate it.

I don't have any statistics to back it up, but it seems that most murderers don't think they're going to be caught, so, other than taking steps to ensure that, the kind of people who are going to commit murder don't seem to give the consequences of their punishment much thought. The people who are stopped from the momentary impulse to kill by considering the consequences probably weren't that likely to take action anyway.

Twick said:

If murder was dealt with by a lecture and a $50 fine, I suspect the rates would go up.

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Eventually, yes. But I would posit that would be more to the general indication that, as a society, we no longer consider murder to be quite so bad as we once thought. Over time, that change in values would make the behavior more normal and acceptable. People who wouldn't have killed when society DID value life highly, would make a different choice.

Twick said:

Also, I suppose I'm a bit of a moral purist, because I believe that if you *do* deliberately kill someone, your life *should* be ruined.

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Call me a moral purist, but I think if you *rape someone*, your life *should* be ruined. And I think if a few more promising lilly-white frat boys had their lives ruined, we could send a societal message that women and their bodily autonomy are valued in this society.

On murder and the death penalty:

There's a series of movies (The Purge), up to three of them now, in which the conceit is that for 12 hours, once a year, all laws are suspended. For some reason, the only crime anyone seems interested in committing during those twelve hours seems to be murder. You'd think there'd be an uptick in check kiting, downloading copyrighted songs, and talking in the movies, but no. It's all murder all the time.

Also, for the downward number of murders unrelated to the death penalty, recall that Ted Bundy moved from a state without a death penalty to one that did have a death penalty for his final series of crimes (ending in his execution). I do wonder if a bit of particularly-elaborate suicide-by-cop might be involved in some murders.

Back to the topic of this thread, I think that hammering this guy (and the Stanford Swimmer) would be a good plan. Tried, convicted, then sentenced to the maximum.

But see also the video from The Onion (where a star athlete heroically manages to put having raped someone behind him), which presciently names Colorado

James D. Macdonald said:

Also, for the downward number of murders unrelated to the death penalty, recall that Ted Bundy moved from a state without a death penalty to one that did have a death penalty for his final series of crimes (ending in his execution). I do wonder if a bit of particularly-elaborate suicide-by-cop might be involved in some murders.

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I've heard this, too, but he definitely backpedaled like crazy when it came close to the time for him to take the walk to the hot seat. He tried to make the case that he was more valuable alive than dead for the bit of insight he could offer into the psychological underpinnings of serial murderers. He went so far as to record an interview with evangelical minister, James Dobson, detailing for him on camera the sad tale of his influential and murder-inspiring porn addiction, pandering in a last ditch effort for allies in his bid to commute his sentence.

People who knew him (I mean as well as anyone could have known him) doubted this sudden confession.