My "Bad Guy" is Gay, but those two things are totally unrelated

As long as you make it clear that her being a lesbian has nothing to do with her being evil, I think it's fine. LGBT can be good and bad, just like any other group of people.

Just be aware this doesn't become a...common pattern with all future lesbian characters, though. Be aware there are tropes for lesbians being either dead and/or "evil" (or "insane").

ETA: Write what you want. Not everyone will like the same things, just like anything else that has an audience.

Some people may be sensitive to this kind of thing (like yours truly), while other people are not, and many may be fine with it if it fits the story, etc.

If you're making it clear that her being gay doesn't have anything to do with her being evil, and her character isn't a stereotype, there isn't an issue.

I don't know if others share this sentiment, but it makes me uncomfortable to think of intentionally shaping a character's morality and/or sexual orientation in order to avoid having a gay character as an antagonist, as that strikes me as being problematic in itself. I agree that we need to avoid demonizing LGBT characters and other marginalized groups in fiction, but I think establishing that there's nothing wrong or unusual about being LGBT, whether you're a hero or villain or anything in between, is a component of getting greater diversity in fiction. That, and trying not to use shallow stereotypes, like the overly effeminate and flamboyant gay male villain you see in some Japanese video-games.

Like bunny-gypsy says though, just make sure it's not a recurring pattern in your work. There is no problem with having a gay villain, but if it happens over and over again, people will start wondering, and probably for good reason.

I might note that, to be perfectly blunt, there will probably be some readers who don't care for that part of the story. I don't have much to say to that except to respect their opinions, decide if there is anything you need to take into account for future work and/or revisions, and keep writing.

Edit: And like Roxxsmom says below, one excellent way to balance out things is to have positive/good LGBT characters so that you have a variety of representations in the work.

Matt T. said:

I don't know if others share this sentiment, but it makes me uncomfortable to think of intentionally shaping a character's morality and/or sexual orientation in order to avoid having a gay character as an antagonist, as that strikes me as being problematic in itself.

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I'll never understand this sentiment.

I'm concerned that there are patterns of the more problematic tropes.

Being an LGBT who's also a casual Christian, LGBT representation was important to me. I rarely see LGBT in my own entertainment, so it's important to me when I do see an LGBT character. Unfortunately, the few I do see tend to fit in one of those tropes. (Which didn't help, because I grew up thinking being gay was a "sin". It didn't help the homophobia I already felt from my environment.)

Creators can still create evil, mentally unstable, and/or dead LGBT characters. Some creators are still doing those tropes to this day.

So I'm not concerned for the creators complaining about "PCness" or being "censored" or having their creativity "hampered/restricted" or whatever.

Those of us who are sensitive to the tropes are apparently in the minority, so creators shouldn't have to worry and they can keep doing what they're doing.

So, yeah, I'm not sympathetic to creators feeling hampered by these tropes.

What's stopping a creator from doing the tropes? Other creators are successful, even with such tropes.

Creators can do whatever they want, and can still have success as long as they work on the craft, and entertain, or appeal to, a big enough audience.

Given the relative paucity of positive QUILTBAG characters and the history of negative stereotypes in literature, I'm guessing gay and lesbian villains do get held up to more scrutiny for a reason. Aside from what you mentioned--not having her orientation be related to her villainy--the things that would send flags up for me would be an absence of more sympathetic or "good" characters who are lesbian and the presence of certain stereotypes associated with lesbians (like she hates all men or is a lesbian because she was raped or traumatized).

However, I'm straight myself, so I can't address how gay or lesbian readers might respond. I know that some stories I've read that I thought had good portrayals aren't thought of the same way by people who have lived experience with stereotyping and prejudice.

bunny-gypsy said:

I'll never understand this sentiment.

I'm concerned that there are patterns of the more problematic tropes.

Being an LGBT who's also a casual Christian, LGBT representation was important to me. I rarely see LGBT in my own entertainment, so it's important to me when I do see an LGBT character. Unfortunately, the few I do see tend to fit in one of those tropes. (Which didn't help, because I grew up thinking being gay was a "sin". It didn't help the homophobia I already felt from my environment.)

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I don't think we're ultimately in disagreement. I'm in agreement with you about the more problematic tropes, as that comes down to lazy writing and stereotyping and can be damaging in the long-run.

As with many things in writing, it comes down to moderation and restraint. Having an intelligently written gay antagonist, or a gay character that dies, isn't necessarily an issue by itself. Having a large number of villains and/or evil characters be gay (and potentially shallowly written as well) or repeatedly killing off gay characters or using their deaths as shallow plot devices is a problem. And this becomes trickier when you have large numbers of writers repeating these tropes throughout popular culture.

My issue is more flatly rejecting the idea of having a gay antagonist in your story simply because they're gay, which doesn't make me comfortable. You certainly have to be careful with representations like this, but, if it fits their vision, I would much rather see a writer create a well fleshed out gay antagonist (and preferably not stereotypical) and then, if possible, balance that out with good LGBT characters. Simply making the character straight, downplaying or ignoring their sexuality, or morphing their morality or motivations leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Well, I kind of disagree about it as a big concern, though. (Or, at least, I still don't understand what's stopping people from creating.)

It sounds like unfounded paranoia or lack of self-confidence in one's product/creation.

I don't see evidence of creators being "hampered" by this kind of concern.

If anything, I usually see creators blaming people who are sensitive to this kind of thing for being "too sensitive"/"PC"/whatever and then refusing to do anything different with the tropes and keep defending said tropes all of the time.

So, yeah, I still don't see the problematic aspect of it. Creators can do whatever. They don't have to listen to everybody. Not every story will appeal to every person. Not every trope will appeal to every person.

Creating stuff is taking some risks. One has to follow their heart and do whatever they think is right for their creation.

ETA: If we're talking about unreasonable people, then that's different. There will always be some unreasonable people. There will always be people complaining about something about anything, lol.

My advice to the OP? (GuitarShank) Write the story with the gay "bad guy". Go with what works with the story.

Just...be educated and aware of hurtful stereotypes and types of tropes. Be aware this doesn't become a pattern with this type of character for the future.

bunny-gypsy said:

Well, I kind of disagree about it as a big concern, though.

It sounds like unfounded paranoia or lack of self-confidence in one's product/creation.

I don't see evidence of creators being "hampered" by this kind of concern.

If anything, I usually see creators blaming people who are sensitive to this kind of thing for being "too sensitive"/"PC"/whatever and then refusing to do anything different with the tropes and keep defending said tropes all of the time.

So, yeah, I still don't see the problematic aspect of it. Creators can do whatever. They don't have to listen to everybody. Not every story will appeal to every person. Not every trope will appeal to every person.

Creating stuff is taking some risks. One has to follow their heart and do whatever they think is right for their creation.

ETA: If we're talking about unreasonable people, then that's different. There will always be some unreasonable people. There will always be people complaining about something about anything, lol.

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I don't think it's a huge concern, as I agree that there are other aspects of representation that need more attention, but it's certainly something that comes up every once in a while, as we can see with OP's post. I've caught myself wondering this in my own writing before, although not to the same extent as the OP.

I agree with you that creators can do whatever they want. In the context of what I was saying, I think that creators like the OP shouldn't be afraid to create LGBT characters that are antagonists, or potentially evil, if it fits their vision for the story and they've handled it properly. If they think it's right for the story, them more power to them, even if I don't always end up agreeing with how representations are handled.

And yeah, no matter what way you write it, there will always be someone who doesn't care for your story though. Like you said, there are some unreasonable people out there haha.

Matt T. said:

I don't think it's a huge concern, as I agree that there are other aspects of representation that need more attention, but it's certainly something that comes up every once in a while, as we can see with OP's post. I've caught myself wondering this in my own writing before, although not to the same extent as the OP.

I agree with you that creators can do whatever they want. In the context of what I was saying, I think that creators like the OP shouldn't be afraid to create LGBT characters that are antagonists, or potentially evil, if it fits their vision for the story and they've handled it properly. If they think it's right for the story, them more power to them, even if I don't always end up agreeing with how representations are handled.

And yeah, no matter what way you write it, there will always be someone who doesn't care for your story though. Like you said, there are some unreasonable people out there haha.

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Ah, I see. I totally understand where you're coming from.

What I bolded is exactly what I think creators should do: Do what is right for the product/creation, even if not everyone agrees on how certain aspects are handled.

And I totally get you on the unreasonable people angle. I've seen some that just hurt my head, lol! (I mean, look at who's running for President right now. XD The world has all kinds of people.)

OP, go for it! Just write the best story you can.

Just include more LGBTQIA+ folks in your cast. When there's a good variety it doesn't come across as trope-y. Problem solved.

This can be trickier in short wordcount stories, but in a multi-POV YA Fantasy there would usually be space. Can you find it? Even background characters (friends, family, parents) can help even out representation, though a POV would work better if possible.

If the wordcount doesn't allow it, though, I wouldn't sweat it too much. As the lovely bunny-gypsy says, just write the best story you can. It sounds like you're approaching things with good intentions, and as sensitively as you can. Keep it up!

bunny-gypsy said:

It sounds like unfounded paranoia or lack of self-confidence in one's product/creation.

I don't see evidence of creators being "hampered" by this kind of concern.

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It's not about hampering creators; it's about hampering diversity, which is a compound effect of many creators doing the same thing. And if many people are anxious about writing gay antagonists and thus avoid doing it, you get less of them. So how likely is it that those unwritten, or de-gayed characters would have been a boon to diversity, rather than yet another stereotype?

If anything, I usually see creators blaming people who are sensitive to this kind of thing for being "too sensitive"/"PC"/whatever and then refusing to do anything different with the tropes and keep defending said tropes all of the time.

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That's because people who quietly drop the gayness attribute from a character are invisible. How would you know that a great straight/indeterminate character could have been a great gay character if the author hadn't been to anxious to try? In most of those cases, it's not the book that suffers, it's diversity.

You're right that it's an issue of self-confidence. And I think people who see a complex problem for what it is are likely to be less confident than people who swallow their own prejudice hook, line and sinker. So who's more likely to drop a gay antagonist from his roster, and what are the effects on positive diversity vs. clichéd representation?

I do think anxiety here is more a problem for those who want diversity: people who drop great gay antagonists from their stories out of anxiety are the invisible side of problem; people who keep clichéd representations are the visible side. And people who complain loudly about criticism are obnoxious (but they might complain loudly out of initial defensiveness and then take it on board anyway - I've seen that happen [in other areas]).

Roxxsmom said:

Aside from what you mentioned--not having her orientation be related to her villainy--the things that would send flags up for me would be an absence of more sympathetic or "good" characters who are lesbian and the presence of certain stereotypes associated with lesbians (like she hates all men or is a lesbian because she was raped or traumatized).

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I think that's your best answer in a nutshell. Populating your world with varying characterizations that share some of your antagonist's traits without being antagonists will dilute the bearing of said traits on her antagonism. (Ha, that has to be one of the silliest sentences ever written, but I think it's also true!)

Glad to see the thread helped give you some confidence to write on!

I'm glad that you have good intentions and are aware of the sensitivity issue. Sounds like you know what you are doing, that's awesome. :3

Wishing you best of luck on the project. Write the best story you can!

Sounds like you're on the right track. Good luck with your story!

I'm going to differ from the general sentiment here and say I see some red flags, which makes me suggest that you think harder about your approach here before moving on.

The tl;dr is what EMaree said: Have a diversity of queer characters. That's absolutely the way to go, IMHO. I believe any type of character can and should be any type of demographic, but in order to combat dangerous cliches, I get really uncomfortable when the ONLY person from that demographic fits that mold (and "psycho evil lesbian" IS a dangerous sterotype). There's a rule of thumb that I can't remember where I saw the first time, unfortunately -- if you're worried about your character from A demographic having X possibly-damaging trope, ask yourself: Do ALL your book's characters from A demograhic fit X? And secondly, are people from A demographic the ONLY people in your book who fit X? It sounds like you're answering yes to both of these, and though lesbian bad guys don't sound like a de facto problem to me, this does.

I would also, of course, urge you to have three-dimensional characters, but it sounds like you have that covered.

GuitarShank said:

I typically don't think about diversity when I come up with characters. Race and sexual orientation are the farthest things from my mind when thinking of who someone is, because while those things can shape people, they aren't relevant to the characters I write.

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Unless you're writing in a vastly alien secondary world (and even if you are, bcause your readers will be bringing baggage from this one), I urge you to rethink this. Race, sexual orientation, gender, etc do affect people to varying degrees, but by saying you're only writing people whom these things affect not at all, you're cutting a VAST dimension of human experience out of your writing. Especially if you're contemporary -- but again, even if you're not. I'm also wildly skeptical this is at all realistic, because even if I ignore certain traits about myself, society certainly isn't going to. Saying "these things don't matter" is, in my opinion, a harmful sentiment until we live in a world in which they truly DON'T matter. Does that make sense?

It's one of the dimensions we mean when we talk about privilege: one of the privileges of being majority-whatever is having the option NOT to think about these things.

(eta: To be clear, I'm not suggesting you change your plots or storylines to revolve around demographic issues! That's not the point I'm trying to make in the least. I just think that cast diversity can enrich *any* storyline, no matter how irrelevant people's demographics are to the main plot. Heck, I write action-adventure stuff myself; I wouldn't say my books are "about" any of these things, but the characters' identities still enrich them around the edges -- at least, I like to think so.)

And the last thing I want to do is write stereotypes by coming up with traits and going "ooh, because of these things, they should be gay/black/anything else non-white-heteronormal."

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Er, I think you mean heterosexual...

This comment makes me confused and unhappy, because why would only stereotypical characters be nonwhite or queer? You seem to be not considering the entire third option of, "make people queer and nonwhite in diverse and nonstereotypical ways."

So when I thought about considering removing this character's sexuality from my story, I ran into the problem Matt's pointing to here. Well, two problems. On the one hand, I'd have a less diverse cast if I un-gayed a lesbian (to paraphrase a post from this thread);

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There's no reason to do that.

and on the other, I'd only be doing it to make it more... accessible? I feel like that's a terrible way to put it. I'd be removing homosexuality from the story because I'm afraid of getting criticized.

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Fear of criticism is never a good reason to do something. Not wanting to cause harm to people, however, is.

I do like the suggestion of making another good character gay, but I feel like it has to happen naturally. Otherwise it comes off as forced, and down that path lurk stereotypes. I never once considered making a flamboyant gay man or a butch lesbian

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This right here is another red flag to me.

First, when people insist they want things to happen "naturally", well, the problem is that we're all biased. And we all have stereotypes ingrained. Our minds jump straight to what we expect, instead of mirroring the true reality of the world. You're the author. You're in control.

In general, studies have shown that in the real world, when we allow things like job interviews, pay rate, advancement, etc to happen "naturally," that it's impacted by people's unconscious bias to statistically significant degrees.

And this brings me back to what I touched on above, which is that you seem to be implying that the only "natural" way to make a queer character is by that characer fitting the most extreme of stereotypes. In your writing-mind, why isn't anyone else "naturally" queer? Why can't a completely non-stereotypical person also be queer?

, because that's something I'm definitely not ready to touch in my own writing. I want to be both honest and respectful, and both require careful consideration, particularly of my own skills.

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No problem. Still no reason not to include more queer people.

I don't feel like I'm being hampered by the effects of gay tropes in fiction. Rather, I want to do right by the LGBT community whom I want to be considered a part of "normal" by and large. My carefulness here isn't out of trying to be PC, but out of not wanting to feed into hate. I don't want to find my story being quoted by some anti-gay demagogue unless they're actively speaking out against it. That would be great. Suck it, homophobes.

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Good.

You seem willing to listen, so I hope you'll consider all this. Obviously, only my opinion and queer people aren't a monolith, etc. Also, I am in no way meaning to attck you, only to answer your request for advice.

Thanks for taking what I said under advisement. You strike me as very well-intentioned, and your book does not strike me as inherently bad -- it's more that, well, things you say keep making me blink a bit, and that suggests (to me) that more thought may be warranted.

To clarify a few things:

GuitarShank said:

But when it comes to making non-majority demographic characters, to have them treated like the real world, someone would have to have some disdain for them because of those traits.

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Bwuh? Who said anything about disdain? I certainly didn't.

This is again falling into the "making me blink" category, because it seems to be assuming that the only way queerness (or race, or gender) can be portrayed as affecting our lives is for people to discriminate against us. Which is... I kind of don't know where to start in explaining how strange I find this. Me personally, different demographic aspects of me are very important to my identity and sense of self, but even if they weren't, they also affect how I move through society in all sorts of ways, which definitely includes positive and neutral aspects as well as frustrating ones. I just, I'm not sure even how to explain this, other than it feels incredibly reductive to me to equate my queerness and ethnicity wholly and solely with people having disdain for me. And more than that, it's just... it's not true.

Is this making any sense at all?

On the other hand, I don't want to create a gay character (or make an undetermined character gay) solely to make them gay.

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As opposed to... what? Do you worry about making straight characters straight solely to make them straight?

IMO, queerness shouldn't be looked at by creators as a deviation, but as an equally valid choice during character creation. The question, IMHO, shouldn't be, "should I make this character gay?" but instead, "hmm, what sexual orientation should this character have?"

In fact, the sexuality of most other characters never comes up. The only characters whose orientation you might glean from the details are those with children, or those who find another character attractive. Even then, that's not definitive proof of anything.

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Well sure, but why not make some of these passing references to someone of the same sex?

is that I just need to work harder at this and challenge myself to write a more diverse cast. I don't want any character to fall into the trap of tokenism,

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Personally, I think people worry too much about tokenism. As long as your characters are three-dimensional, they won't be tokens.

and I also don't want to undermine anything that makes my characters who they are.

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Wait, now I'm a bit confused. I thought you said most of the characters had their sexual orientation currently undefined, and that it doesn't hugely affect their lives within the story. If you haven't decided on a sexual orientation for them, how does making them queer undermine who they are?

I'm sorry if I'm off base here, but I keep having this impression that you're defaulting all your characters to white and straight unless you make an active choice to change that, even though you say they haven't been defined in any way.

And even if you aren't defaulting, it's worth noting that your readers will. People default any character who's undescribed to white and straight. Heck, as various casting controversies have proved (cf. Rue), sometimes people vehemently default to white and straight even when a character IS explicitly described otherwise. For me personally, that's why explicit representation is so important, because if the representation isn't explicit, we get erased. (Erasure actually bothers me more than flawed representation, but others' mileage on that point varies widely.)

My antagonist in this story isn't a man-hating evil lesbian, for the record. She's very smart but angry after the circumstances of her father's death, and as a result she overestimates her abilities and tends to go off half-cocked. The girlfriend's character hasn't been explored quite as much because she appeared late in the first draft, but she's much more sympathetic and actually keeps the antagonist grounded and less apt to make rash decisions.

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Sadly, simply having lesbians as evil/villains is itself a trope that's rather worn and tired.

Again, not that you can't have lesbian villains -- that's not what I'm saying at all. Especially if they're interesting, meaty ones who become protagonists later. IMHO it just has to be done with awareness, so as to avoid reinforcing damaging stereotypes.

Your post, sihuang, actually covers a wide breadth of issues to consider, and I don't think I can respond to all of them right now. Just know that I really appreciate the insight and your opinion, and I'm not disagreeing with you (mostly because I'm not in a position to do so) but I did want to clarify, at the very least, that I've done what I can to avoid creating stereotypes, and after the second draft I'll be in a better place to figure out if I've done enough to that end.

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Don't feel obligated to respond, although I'm happy to expound more if it's helpful. Thanks for thinking about it.

GuitarShank said:

I definitely agree with the demographic problem. My only LGBT representation is on the side of the antagonists, which was my main concern.

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When you put it that way, this definitely feels like an issue. There *has* to be scope for other LGBT folks in your fantasy world, surely? Is there not even room for incidentally-diverse side characters?

But when it comes to making non-majority demographic characters, to have them treated like the real world, someone would have to have some disdain for them because of those traits. I don't like the idea of even writing that, because I hate seeing, well, hate, in the real world. It's a bit of a blind spot, sure; I'm just not sure how to make it relevant in the story without it becoming its own plot thread (or without me royally screwing it up).

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Your fantasy world does not need to include worldbuilding where gay, lesbian, trans and intersex folks are hated.

In fact, your queer readers would probably appreciate the freshness of a world where diverse sexualities exist without prejudice based on the real world.

Are you reading diverse fantasy books? It's really so much easier than anyone thinks to include diversity -- THE FIFTH SEASON is a beautiful example of an effortlessly diverse fantasy world, though it's not light and fluffy. It includes prejudice against homosexuality (because the world has a heavy social focus on having lots of children) but it shows this subtly, without having the bisexual primary character experience hatred.

On the other hand, I don't want to create a gay character (or make an undetermined character gay) solely to make them gay.

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Why not?

Even then, that's not definitive proof of anything.

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Please be aware: if it's not in the text, readers will assume your characters are straight. You cannot rely on subtext or authorial intent when it comes to non-white, trans and gay/queer characters. Readers are too used to assume white and straight, you really have to be blunt with the point if you want it to stick.

See also:
The rule of three, stating something three times if you want the reader to actually notice it.
Dumbledore, and the fact he was never outright stated as gay in the books, so most readers don't consider 'Word of God' from JK to be enough.
The infamous fan outrage when Rue in the Hunger Games, who's black in the books, was black in the movies too.
Holtzmann in Ghostbusters: heavily queer coded, played by a lesbian actress, but the creator is afraid to state either way because "the studios" wouldn't like it.
Sulu in the new Star Trek movie: very obviously shown hugging his husband, but because they don't kiss a lot of dudes are arguing he's not gay, despite creator intent being clear.

In the past I've read too many novels where the bad guy was gay (or racist or a paedophile etc) for no other reason than to make him more 'distasteful' - and while we have all come a long way from those days (or at least I hope we have) I'm always still a bit wary about the authors reasons for making the bad guys especially gay.

Dealing with a lot of gay characters and myself being classified as gay, let me say this: Just make your feelings evident in the story. Maybe your antag feels like people judge her because she's gay or maybe have a side character who views the stereotype of gay=evil as truth and have your MC counter it. That's how I would handle it.

I'd shy away from diversity-for-the-sake-of-diversity, but I would highly recommend reexamining your protagonists - and possibly your world as a whole. The fact that they're currently defaulting to white and straight implies that they haven't been totally thought through yet. If you end up making any of them nonwhite and/or non-straight, that's going to affect their character in some way - even if what you're writing is a fantasy world without our world's prejudices and preconceptions. Actually, because what you're writing is a fantasy world, the "default" is entirely up to you. One of my friends has bisexuality as the default orientation in her world, and if I'm not mistaken the world of Ancillary Justice has dark skin as the most common shade. (I haven't read the books, my mom's just told me about them - don't quote me). Depending on how deep you want to go into worldbuilding, you can play with this as much as you like. Right now your "default" matches up with our reality's "default" (in this country, in this current time period), but it doesn't have to stay that way.

In fiction I've found the presence of real-world default ideas tends to betray a lack of depth in the worldbuilding involved, and/or a lack of attention paid to reality. So many stories DO have all-white, all-straight hero groups, but outside of suburbia I can't walk down the street without running into at least three disparate ethnicities, and statistically speaking the QUILTBAG population almost certainly makes up at least a third of the greater population. I've found people who DO fit that "default" tend not to register exactly how meaningless the idea of the default is - the concept of straight-and-white-until-proven-otherwise just doesn't work these days, but if you fall into that category you never encounter the friction between you and the assumptions made of you by society, so you never get the jarring realization that so few people fit the supposed "normal" of society.

Bottom line I'd say don't be worried that your antagonist is gay, but maybe be worried that all your heroes are currently white and straight. And to be clear, none of this is intended to be accusatory! It's really cool that you're trying to do this in an educated and respectful manner!

I recommend hiring a sensitivity reader at some point in the editing process.