Betas?

Who did your betaing? Friends, family, other writers?

Good beta readers don't just spring up out of nowhere; they need to be searched out or trained.

If you give your novel to a friend or family member who reads a lot but doesn't have any writing or editing experience, they will say things like "I enjoyed it" or "I didn't like it" without being able to be specific about why. At least not in more than general terms. When you ask them things like "What's specifically not working for you" or "What could be improved", they probably won't have any solid answers.

Your best beta readers will be other writers. Finding a few people who write in similar genres is a good start. You can trade manuscripts and beta for each other, because you're all familiar with the writing process. In other cases, you can train someone to be a beta reader by providing them with specific lists of things to keep in mind as they're going through your manuscript, and sets of questions specific to your protagonist, setting, story arc, etc. After you work with someone in this manner a few times, they'll start to understand what it is you're looking for in a Beta read.

Incidentally, I gave my first novel to my family to read. They loved it. Great for the ego, but had absolutely no value when it came to redrafting to get it publishable.

J.D.Dunsmuir said:

Your best beta readers will be other writers. Finding a few people who write in similar genres is a good start. You can trade manuscripts and beta for each other, because you're all familiar with the writing process.

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This is excellent advice. There is value in having people who are just regular readers read your manuscript, as they can give you an idea of what the average person thinks of it, but your most helpful critiques are most likely going to come from other writers. Assuming they have at least a moderate amount of experience with creative writing, they'll be able to point out things like POV, pacing, structure, themes, recurring issues in your prose or dialogue, etc. Some beta readers will also do line-by-line comments, which can be invaluable for tweaking your core writing.

I would also emphasize that you find people who know and enjoy the genre you're writing in. Otherwise, your comments may end up being off base and not give you a good idea of how readers and agents will respond to your work. For example, I can critique YA fairly well because I've read a good amount of it and understand the genre's conventions, whereas I would be atrocious at critiquing fantasy because I can't stand the vast majority of it and don't regularly read it.

To answer your question on whether people ever submit manuscripts without having beta readers go over them first, I would imagine it happens, but it's not a very good idea. You would be amazed at the amount of stuff beta readers can point out that you probably didn't even think of. Naturally, beta readers won't agree on everything, and you as the writer have to make the hard decisions on what advice to listen to and what to discard, but if you have the right beta readers, you'll almost always come out of it with a stronger piece of writing.

Reason
Not funny, not appropriate. And not helpful.

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Sorry

There is sometimes an issue with needing actual professional feedback. Even other writers are operating at different experience levels--and sadly, those operating at very high levels of experience often have too many demands to be available for reading less polished work.

It sounds to me like you got excellent feedback from most of your judges, and that may be what you needed them for. I started out several years ago mentoring a younger writer, but within those few years, she quickly outstripped my abilities to teach her, and needed genuine professional feedback to take her work to the next level. She landed with an excellent agent, who pushed her on, and now her editor gets the job of taking her further. (Btw, I now go to her for feedback and advice.) But there came a point where she needed more than people at her level could give. That point may have arrived for you as well.

ETA: Which, as has been pointed out, does not mean you don't need beta readers. They can still catch some amazing clunkers, besides telling you where something isn't working reader-wise.

M.Charles said:

Does anyone submit a ms that *hasn't* been passed around to others for feedback?

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Some do. Beta readers are not a requirement. They are not all created equal, either. Sometimes, unfortunately, it's a case of the blind leading the blind. Not always, though. If you can find a beta reader who can provide relevant, competent feedback, that person would be worth his/her weight in gold.

Even though your betas didn't catch the same issue(s) as the judges, did they help to positively shape the manuscript at all? If you feel they didn't, it's time to search out different betas.

I agree that writers make the best betas, but having readers in the mix doesn't hurt, as long as you understand the difference between the kind of feedback you get from writers vs. the kind you get from readers. If you have writers as beta readers, who are they and where did you find them? I have a IRL critique group that reads all my work piece by piece, and then I tap into them as beta readers when my ms's are ready. This means I know them and I know the kind of feedback they each provide. I also have at least a decade of experience getting feedback on my work, so I know what I can use and what I'll graciously discard.

I think knowing your betas can help you mine their comments for useful feedback. And having experience with being critiqued help you know how to interpret feedback from beta readers who are both writers and readers.

Remember too that beta readers are readers; not editors.

They are not a substitute or stand-in for editors; they represent readers.

CaroGirl said:

Even though your betas didn't catch the same issue(s) as the judges, did they help to positively shape the manuscript at all? If you feel they didn't, it's time to search out different betas.

I agree that writers make the best betas, but having readers in the mix doesn't hurt, as long as you understand the difference between the kind of feedback you get from writers vs. the kind you get from readers. If you have writers as beta readers, who are they and where did you find them? I have a IRL critique group that reads all my work piece by piece, and then I tap into them as beta readers when my ms's are ready. This means I know them and I know the kind of feedback they each provide. I also have at least a decade of experience getting feedback on my work, so I know what I can use and what I'll graciously discard.

I think knowing your betas can help you mine their comments for useful feedback. And having experience with being critiqued help you know how to interpret feedback from beta readers who are both writers and readers.

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I don't know that there is any kind of "best" beta reader, but it's more like you said that you should be aware of the different types of feedback you will get from any given person.

Do they read a lot, or not much?
What genre is their preference? How familiar are they with other genres? Do they tend to like X, Y, or Z style?
Do they write, themselves?
Regardless of if they write, are they practiced at analyzing and identifying either structural or technical flaws OR flaws in a premise/general interest/that kind of thing?
Are they the type of person who gives in depth or shallow feedback, naturally? How long will they take to read? Will they be HONEST?

A lot of those factors can contribute to good or bad feedback--being a writer oneself might help but I think it also depends on the kind of feedback you want.

I think it helps to know what you want feedback about/what problems you want to work on before asking for feedback from betas because something that makes someone an excellent beta for dealing with conventions of YA and structure might make them awful at determining if your fight scenes or cookie gobbling scenes or whatever are engaging.

I think a big part of getting the most out of your betas is having a ballpark idea of your current level of competence (do you consider yourself just learning, do you think you understand how your plot's supposed to work but not sure? Do you know you're awful at character development? etc), and have a few questions to prod your betas with, whether they're a regular reader or a writer or whomever.

I have gotten some helpful feedback from people who otherwise would only have given me general feedback along the lines of "I was confused here," or "I wasn't into this scene", because I worked on developing a list of questions regarding things I was concerned about or thought I needed work. The trick to that is to keep them from being leading questions, too. Upside to asking questions in a non-defensive way, is that if people are hesitant to be critical for whatever reason, then it helps give them a way to say what they thought without coming across as rude or mean. "I had trouble with ___, what was your impression?" If I get the vibe from someone that they're holding back, "I wasn't happy with how ____ turned out. Did that even make sense?" Etc.



Especially considering I don't think a lot of literary agents or publishers necessarily write themselves, and yet these are the people giving professional feedback/the gatekeepers/who can give some of the best advice, I absolutely don't think you should assume that because someone is a writer they'll be a better beta, or that someone who reads a lot won't be. Even average joe can be extremely vital if you need to work a few things out. Especially if your other pool of potential readers has seen the piece in question already and you want something unbiased.

My two cents.

For the 3 books that I've completed so far, I've actually spent more time getting them beta'd and critted than I've spent actually writing them. I didn't plan it that way, but I'm a cautious sort, so I don't jump into publishing.

It's made a difference not only to the books, but to my writing. Some of the betas were marginally useful, some were crazy good (I just drove one of the forum members crazy there ), but most had different things to contribute. And all feedback gave me food for thought about my writing and taught me something.

If you think about writing without benefit of betas, you publish something, then wait for the reviews, comments, and sales figures to learn about where you can improve. With betas, you get more immediate, personal feedback, and at least as good an education. Other than the time spent beta-ing instead of publishing, I just don't see a downside.

M.Charles said:

Because of my inability to reciprocate, I don't want to ask others here to beta for me, b/c that seems incredibly one sided and selfish. So, trying to figure out how to make the best use of what I've got, and figure out how to do what needs done.

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And yet there are people on this forum who will beta your WIP without any expectation of reciprocation, simply because your premise interests them. It's not like reading is a chore...

Check out the Beta readers thread. There are a lot of people who are offering in expectation of a swap, and a lot of others who are just offering. Or open a thread asking for beta readers, and put up a description of your WIP.

As for them giving you what you need: if a beta reader's comment makes you go, "Ohhhhhh....." and grab for your keyboard, then yeah. Even with the best betas, most of what they say inline won't be particularly helpful for making changes or improving your writing. However, if they say, "This confused me" or, "Why is the MC doing that?" then you may have a plot hole to fill, or more description to add. If they do some line-editing at the same time, that's bonus, but I never expect it.

Have you tried Share Your Work?

M.Charles said:

I can't imagine trying to beta read someone else's work right now. I'm swamped with kids, my work, and a severe chronic pain disability. I'm very, very scared to offer to beta someone's work, b/c I've never done it before, I don't know when pain is going to take me out for a day or more, or other life hazards come up and I don't get things done as I ought to, and folks are waiting on me. Taking on something more just doesn't feel doable to me.

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I absolutely understand about not wanting to take on any more commitments, and I think it's honorable that you don't want to let down someone who is waiting on your feedback. However, I have to say that I've found beta reading others' work to be very beneficial to my own writing, sometimes even more helpful than receiving comments from my own betas. I'm amazed by the things I will notice in others' writing that I had previously overlooked in my own.

If a full beta-swap is too much of a commitment right now, have you considered the Share Your Work forum here?You can practice beta reading in smaller chunks on your own timetable. You can also post sections of your own work for feedback. It's a great way to reap the benefits of beta reading, help your fellow writers, build good will, and possibly even discover the perfect beta reader for your own material.

I also agree that if never hurts to check the beta forum. There are frequently people looking to beta without the expectation of a swap. I can't overestimate the value (at least for me) of having someone you don't know read your work critically. Especially someone you found on an amazing writing forum like AW ;-)

Best of luck!

I found this interesting little checklist that might help train good beta readers:
http://www.eadeverell.com/wp-content/uploads/editing.pdf

Thank you, JD for the list.

And thank you to everyone for the great advice.

I'm in the process of having my first novel beta-read and I haven't been sure how to instruct them what to do. None of them have been a beta-reader before. I don't think many/any of them have editing experience, so I'm not going to expect much. I do think one of them will tear my story to pieces, so that's a good thing.

In any case, I think that Angry Guy said it best:

If you think about writing without benefit of betas, you publish something, then wait for the reviews, comments, and sales figures to learn about where you can improve. With betas, you get more immediate, personal feedback, and at least as good an education. Other than the time spent beta-ing instead of publishing, I just don't see a downside.

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Angry Guy said:

If you think about writing without benefit of betas, you publish something, then wait for the reviews, comments, and sales figures to learn about where you can improve. With betas, you get more immediate, personal feedback, and at least as good an education. Other than the time spent beta-ing instead of publishing, I just don't see a downside.

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There can be a downside, though - if a writer is overly involved in pleasing the beta(s), the book can be ruined. I've seen that happen, especially with younger writers. The problem was not so much with the book being ruined (it may not have been very good anyway) but with the writer missing the step where they take charge and judge their own work - find their own voice.

A beta is a marvellous thing and a good beta is worth her weight in - well - everything. But beta-feedback is a tool that needs to be understood and managed.