What If They Contradict Each Other?

M.Charles · Jul 10, 2016

Not sure where to put this, b/c it's a question about beta reading, but not about any beta readers *here*.

If it needs to be moved, I apologize.

My question is, what happens when two beta readers take completely opposite views?

I got feedback, one saying that they loved the level of description in the prologue, that they could picture things, and visualize everything.

The other, that there was TOO MUCH description, to simplify.

It's like, "Cowbell! More cowbell!" vs, "Get rid of the freaking cowbell!" and I am genuinely confused.

Dennis E. Taylor · Jul 10, 2016

That's pretty normal. It's when everyone agrees that you have a problem that needs fixing.

Let's face it, people have different opinions about what they like. I love world building and have a high tolerance for info-dumps. Some people will start complaining around the second sentence. Some people love pictures being painted with words. Others find them unnecessary and distracting.

If you get contradictory advice like that, you're running into individual opinions, which means, generally, you can do it your way.

Brightdreamer · Jul 10, 2016

Remember that you are the writer. Listen to what your betas are saying, try to understand why they're saying it, but ultimately it's up to you how, or even if, to implement any changes based on their feedback. Sometimes, a reader will just not "get" your story or style. Or sometimes they're pointing out something in your blind spot that you just plain can't see. What do you know about these beta readers and their tastes in reading? Do you trust their judgement over yours? Have they read the whole book, or are they basing this off just a fragment? (The person who loves lots of description may sour on it if that's all that happens from start to finish, for instance.)

That said, it's generally a good idea to have more than two beta readers for just this reason...

morngnstar · Jul 10, 2016

Maybe there's a win-win. What if you keep the description, but spread it out more interspersing with action and dialogue?

But I agree with the answer that if you get mixed responses it's perfectly fine to leave it as is and just accept that your book can't please everyone.

M.Charles · Jul 10, 2016

Brightdreamer said:
Remember that you are the writer. Listen to what your betas are saying, try to understand why they're saying it, but ultimately it's up to you how, or even if, to implement any changes based on their feedback. Sometimes, a reader will just not "get" your story or style. Or sometimes they're pointing out something in your blind spot that you just plain can't see. What do you know about these beta readers and their tastes in reading? Do you trust their judgement over yours? Have they read the whole book, or are they basing this off just a fragment? (The person who loves lots of description may sour on it if that's all that happens from start to finish, for instance.)

That said, it's generally a good idea to have more than two beta readers for just this reason...

I do have two more...I think.

One hasn't given feedback in almost 2 wks, so I'm kinda striking them off my list. The other usually gets back really quickly, but hasn't yet.

- - - Updated - - -

morngnstar said:
Maybe there's a win-win. What if you keep the description, but spread it out more interspersing with action and dialogue?

But I agree with the answer that if you get mixed responses it's perfectly fine to leave it as is and just accept that your book can't please everyone.

It's the prologue, so not really anywhere to spread it out to.

morngnstar · Jul 10, 2016

M.Charles said:
It's the prologue, so not really anywhere to spread it out to.

The prologue is all description? Okay, I'd probably agree that's a problem. And is it really description, or explanation of the rules of your world (a.k.a. infodump)?

If it's not 100% description, then you can spread it out by spreading it more evenly throughout the prologue. And even if it is 100% description, you can spread it out, by putting that description elsewhere and not all in the prologue.

L. OBrien · Jul 11, 2016

Contradictory feedback is pretty common. Different people like different things. Generally, it helps to get a few readers and look for patterns in the feedback. A big part of editing is learning to filter through the feedback to figure out what's good advice and how you can use it to take your story in the direction that *you* want.

If they're good beta readers, they'll also tell you why they feel a certain way. Look past the initial "I like this/I don't like this") and see what the root problem is. For example: Beta A might like that you have vivid description and great imagery. Beta B might think that it's stalling the story. It's possible for both of them to be correct--maybe it's not that you've got to much description, but that you aren't describing the right things/using it to move the story forwards.

TellMeAStory · Jul 11, 2016

Tie goes to the author. What do YOU think?

M.Charles · Jul 11, 2016

morngnstar said:
The prologue is all description? Okay, I'd probably agree that's a problem. And is it really description, or explanation of the rules of your world (a.k.a. infodump)?

If it's not 100% description, then you can spread it out by spreading it more evenly throughout the prologue. And even if it is 100% description, you can spread it out, by putting that description elsewhere and not all in the prologue.

Def not all description. it's an inciting event, that lays out a big motive for 3 characters. Descriptions are of the characters themselves, as they appear in the scene.

M.Charles · Jul 11, 2016

TellMeAStory said:
Tie goes to the author. What do YOU think?

Honestly, I like it. I think delaying character descriptions until later in the story would leave a hole, or folks being 'blank', until later.

TellMeAStory · Jul 11, 2016

There you go!

Me, I like your reasoning.

M.Charles · Jul 11, 2016

TellMeAStory said:
There you go!

Me, I like your reasoning.

Thanks, LOL! I've never had beta readers before, or finished a novel for editing, so this is all new for me, and sometimes it gets overwhelming and confusing.

E.F.B. · Jul 11, 2016

M.Charles said:
Honestly, I like it. I think delaying character descriptions until later in the story would leave a hole, or folks being 'blank', until later.

I agree with you both as a reader and writer. I like my character descriptions early on, otherwise, all I can see in my head is this blurry outline of a person that constantly changes in appearance until I get solid confirmation of how the author actually sees them.

BethS · Jul 11, 2016

E.F.B. said:
I agree with you both as a reader and writer. I like my character descriptions early on, otherwise, all I can see in my head is this blurry outline of a person that constantly changes in appearance until I get solid confirmation of how the author actually sees them.

Same here.

BethS · Jul 11, 2016

M.Charles said:
It's like, "Cowbell! More cowbell!" vs, "Get rid of the freaking cowbell!"

It might be like that, in which case it comes down to personal preference. But it's possible that Reader One might just be less analytical, while Reader Two saw something in the way the description was written or used that made it seem excessive.

Or not. But it might pay to ask.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 11, 2016

When a reader tells you there's a problem, they're usually right.

When they tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong.

Oftentimes when a reader tells you that there's a problem in Chapter Eight, it means the problem is really in Chapter Four.

Appropriate level of detail is a function of story pace.

M.Charles · Jul 11, 2016

James D. Macdonald said:
When a reader tells you there's a problem, they're usually right.

When they tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong.

Oftentimes when a reader tells you that there's a problem in Chapter Eight, it means the problem is really in Chapter Four.

Appropriate level of detail is a function of story pace.

Thanks!

Sage · Jul 11, 2016

I've used both those notes before. I suck at description, so when an author has a knack for describing things, I let them know that I'm impressed. But I also can get bored with an excess of description, so I let an author know if that's occurring. Sometimes, both of these notes apply for the same book or even the same scene.

WriteMinded · Jul 12, 2016

Don't expect betas to agree. They are individuals with their own preferences, looking at things from their own perspective. You can count on a variety of opinions. Brightdreamer gave you some very good advice.

Dennis E. Taylor · Jul 12, 2016

I'm going through crits on scrib right now. I posted a chapter a week or two ago where one of the MCs is exploring a stellar system that turns out to have an all-water planet. Two of the critters thought it was procedural and lacked tension, but somewhat interesting. The third critter thought it was the best damned thing since coffee. But he freely admits that he loves exploratory stories.

That sounds like a 1/3 success rate, but this is the thing-- the third critter is my target audience.

What If They Contradict Each Other?

M.Charles

On Sub

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

morngnstar

M.Charles

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morngnstar

L. OBrien

TellMeAStory

M.Charles

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M.Charles

On Sub

TellMeAStory

M.Charles

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E.F.B.

Stories, stories everywhere

BethS

BethS

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

M.Charles

On Sub

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

WriteMinded

Derailed

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!