Barnes & Noble to sell self-published books in stores.

Sword&Shield · Jul 9, 2016

http://www.bookbusinessmag.com/post/interesting-twist-bn-sell-self-published-books/

I apologize if this was already posted, ran a search and didn't see it in any of the writing sections or in the Self Pub section.

Looks like if you self-publish, your book can now be sold in B&N stores.

The caveat is that you have to have it self-published on NOOK Press, and have to have sold at least 1,000 units in the last year. Once you reach that milestone, you can submit for review to be stocked in store.

Lots of details to be worked out, but looks like it is a move to try to compete against Amazon's self-publishing space.

jjdebenedictis · Jul 9, 2016

That's pretty big news! I'm not familiar with B&N's NOOK press; do they have rules about pricing? Because selling 1000 copies of a book for a penny is not hard to do, i.e. there are always going to be people willing to try to game the system.

The fact the books get reviewed would probably strain out the "problem" books, but too many attempts to game the system could also cripple the review process.

MaeZe · Jul 9, 2016

Game the system, how? ~~Naive newbie want to know.~~

Oh, never mind. You are talking about gaming the reviews. I get it.

ASeiple · Jul 9, 2016

I'm glad to see this. Doesn't personally affect me or my work right now, but it'd be nice to have it as an option in a few years.

If they're around in a few years. Hard to say.

I'm kind of torn on whether or not I want them to survive. I don't wish them ill, mind you. And they're a local employer...

DancingMaenid · Jul 9, 2016

Considering the cost of having books printed, I would be surprised if many people could afford this route unless they're fairly successful, anyway. Someone who sells 1000 books for a penny apiece might not have the money to go to print.

MaeZe · Jul 9, 2016

I have faith in my novel but getting noticed is hard to predict. The idea behind self publishing is getting past the gatekeepers should they not let you in. Offering limited time specials is a reasonable idea to get your book out. I would consider free copies in exchange for reviews but I'd want reputable reviewers: some people give reviews the way others post on forums. I often check a reviewer's other reviews if reviews are what I'm going by to choose a book. (Hmm, the editor in me thinks that sounds like, "how much wood could a wood chuck chuck." :tongue

)

I digress.

What I'm trying to say is, sometimes you have to give the snowball some momentum to get it rolling.

WeaselFire · Jul 9, 2016

Barnes and Noble still has stores...?

Seriously, B&N has always sold self-published books. What they haven't sold is self-published books that aren't distributed through Ingram or other distributors. Your odds of getting self-published books on bookshelves at major book stores are still extremely high, the only saving grace is that the bookshelves and major bookstores are far less influential than in the past. If you really want a book on the shelf, find an agent and a traditional publishing route.

Jeff

Old Hack · Jul 11, 2016

I can't help being deeply skeptical about this.

First, very few self published writers are going to sell 500-1000 print copies of their books.

Second, assuming they do sell enough copies to qualify for this scheme, their books are not guaranteed to be sold in shops: they're going to be looked at by the chain's book buyers, that's all.

Assuming they're picked up by the buyers, and are approved for sale in the shops, the publisher will then have to ensure they have enough stock in hand to meet orders, and to be able to deliver it at the right price, which means they're going to have to stump up for an offset print run, which is not cheap; they're probably going to have to accept sale or return on any copies which are ordered into the shops; and they're still probably going to need some sort of sales team to get it into individual shops in the chain.

It could happen. But there are a lot of barriers between most self publishers and full print distribution, and this step doesn't really remove them.

Sword&Shield · Jul 12, 2016

Old Hack said:
It could happen. But there are a lot of barriers between most self publishers and full print distribution, and this step doesn't really remove them.

That is kind of where I landed on the subject. I didn't want to present any opinion in the original post, but I do think there will be many hurdles to leap.

RightHoJeeves · Jul 12, 2016

Old Hack said:
I can't help being deeply skeptical about this.

First, very few self published writers are going to sell 500-1000 print copies of their books.

Second, assuming they do sell enough copies to qualify for this scheme, their books are not guaranteed to be sold in shops: they're going to be looked at by the chain's book buyers, that's all.

Assuming they're picked up by the buyers, and are approved for sale in the shops, the publisher will then have to ensure they have enough stock in hand to meet orders, and to be able to deliver it at the right price, which means they're going to have to stump up for an offset print run, which is not cheap; they're probably going to have to accept sale or return on any copies which are ordered into the shops; and they're still probably going to need some sort of sales team to get it into individual shops in the chain.

It could happen. But there are a lot of barriers between most self publishers and full print distribution, and this step doesn't really remove them.

I haven't read a lot on the subject, but doesn't Lightning Source/Ingram Spark accept returns for POD books? I thought that was one of the big pluses over CreateSpace. Anyhow, even if it makes it very hard to get into the print store, it can't be a bad thing that the option is there for those who can. If anything, it is just another step in the direction of raised standards across the board for SPers.

Old Hack · Jul 12, 2016

Sword&Shield said:
That is kind of where I landed on the subject. I didn't want to present any opinion in the original post, but I do think there will be many hurdles to leap.

There are MANY hurdles to leap in this plan. I've not read much about it, but I'm not convinced it's going to make much of a change as far as getting self published print editions into bookshops.

RightHoJeeves said:
I haven't read a lot on the subject, but doesn't Lightning Source/Ingram Spark accept returns for POD books? I thought that was one of the big pluses over CreateSpace.

They probably do, but that's not going to change the fact that the cost of producing POD editions makes it almost impossible to price or discount them at levels which work for physical bookshops.

Anyhow, even if it makes it very hard to get into the print store, it can't be a bad thing that the option is there for those who can. If anything, it is just another step in the direction of raised standards across the board for SPers.

I hope you're right: I'd love to see more self published books in bookshops. But I'm not convinced that this is going to work very well, because there are too many problems and loopholes, I'm afraid. I hope I'm wrong.

RightHoJeeves · Jul 13, 2016

Old Hack said:
T
They probably do, but that's not going to change the fact that the cost of producing POD editions makes it almost impossible to price or discount them at levels which work for physical bookshops.

Do you mean that because of the cut the actual retailer takes, that makes it cost-prohibitive? I suppose a POD book is good for an author because there is a good cut and it works out roughly the same price as a Big 5 book in a bookstore, but it's not taking into account the profit the actual store has to make.

Maybe B&N is going to act as the printer? No idea if they *can* do that, but it would make sense. If they were the ones producing the PODs, then LightningSource or whatever wouldn't be there to take their cut and bring the price up.

Old Hack · Jul 13, 2016

RightHoJeeves said:
Do you mean that because of the cut the actual retailer takes, that makes it cost-prohibitive? I suppose a POD book is good for an author because there is a good cut and it works out roughly the same price as a Big 5 book in a bookstore, but it's not taking into account the profit the actual store has to make.

There are two main pricing problems involved in getting POD books into bookshops.

POD books cost a lot more, per unit, than books produced by offset printing. Therefore a POD book will have a much higher RRP, unless the author is prepared to sell books at a loss.

Bookshops usually expect to buy their stock in at 45 to 50% discount. Even if you price your POD book higher than average for its genre and format, there is still not usually enough room to give booksellers this discount.

These are not the only two reasons POD books aren't routinely stocked in bookshops. Distributors often won't take them, as they aren't very robust and don't withstand shelfwear well, and because of the pricing issues; POD publishers, and self publishers which use POD, don't usually have the levels of sales which distributors demand; often, POD publishers and self publishers won't accept returns, which rules them out from distribution contracts. But you asked about pricing, so I won't go off on one about those!

Maybe B&N is going to act as the printer? No idea if they *can* do that, but it would make sense. If they were the ones producing the PODs, then LightningSource or whatever wouldn't be there to take their cut and bring the price up.

No. I don't think they'll be printing these books. They're booksellers, not printers. And if an author has self published using Lightning Source, B&N can't suddenly start printing those books without a formal contract with the writers concerned--which might well clash with whatever agreements they have with LS.

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StuToYou · Jul 13, 2016

Old Hack said:
There are two main pricing problems involved in getting POD books into bookshops.

POD books cost a lot more, per unit, than books produced by offset printing. Therefore a POD book will have a much higher RRP, unless the author is prepared to sell books at a loss.

Bookshops usually expect to buy their stock in at 45 to 50% discount. Even if you price your POD book higher than average for its genre and format, there is still not usually enough room to give booksellers this discount.

These are not the only two reasons POD books aren't routinely stocked in bookshops. Distributors often won't take them, as they aren't very robust and don't withstand shelfwear well, and because of the pricing issues; POD publishers, and self publishers which use POD, don't usually have the levels of sales which distributors demand; often, POD publishers and self publishers won't accept returns, which rules them out from distribution contracts. But you asked about pricing, so I won't go off on one about those!

No. I don't think they'll be printing these books. They're booksellers, not printers. And if an author has self published using Lightning Source, B&N can't suddenly start printing those books without a formal contract with the writers concerned--which might well clash with whatever agreements they have with LS.

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QFT

RightHoJeeves · Jul 13, 2016

Fair enough. Anyway, I hope it works out for everyone.

Curlz · Jul 13, 2016

Well, the sell-pub authors want "total control", so here's a chance to test their abilities in the paper market. The pricing and quality of POD may still evolve. I just think that the self-pub readership prefers ultra-low prices and this trend will be most difficult to change.

jjdebenedictis · Jul 13, 2016

MaeZe said:
Game the system, how? ~~Naive newbie want to know.~~

Oh, never mind. You are talking about gaming the reviews. I get it.

Actually, I meant game the process of selling 1000 copies. Price your book for a penny, and you can sell 1000 copies to yourself for $10.

Pixelated Porn · Jul 13, 2016

ASeiple said:
I'm glad to see this. Doesn't personally affect me or my work right now, but it'd be nice to have it as an option in a few years.

If they're around in a few years. Hard to say.

I'm kind of torn on whether or not I want them to survive. I don't wish them ill, mind you. And they're a local employer...

Hold on, I cannot wrap my head around someone on a writing forum possibly wanting a huge bookstore chain to fail.

ASeiple · Jul 13, 2016

Pixelated Porn said:
Hold on, I cannot wrap my head around someone on a writing forum possibly wanting a huge bookstore chain to fail.

I still remember what they did to all the smaller bookstores in the area. A lot of good little ones folded, because they couldn't compete. I'd love to see those, or some form of them, come back.

:: Shrugs :: If they survive, okay. If they fall, so be it. Either way it doesn't affect me right now so I'll not worry about it.

Old Hack · Jul 13, 2016

MaeZe said:
I have faith in my novel but getting noticed is hard to predict. The idea behind self publishing is getting past the gatekeepers should they not let you in.

Some writers self publish in order to get past gatekeepers. But many self publish because they want to produce a unique edition; others self publish because they enjoy the business side of publishing; others want to have more control over the publication of their book.

Offering limited time specials is a reasonable idea to get your book out. I would consider free copies in exchange for reviews but I'd want reputable reviewers: some people give reviews the way others post on forums.

Publishers send ARCs out to reviewers whose reviews will be published in the press, on blogs, and so on.

Reviews on Amazon etc are meant to be written by readers who have bought your book without a connection to you. Don't try to get round this: it can have negative implications for you, and all your books.

WeaselFire said:
Barnes and Noble still has stores...?

Seriously, B&N has always sold self-published books. What they haven't sold is self-published books that aren't distributed through Ingram or other distributors. Your odds of getting self-published books on bookshelves at major book stores are still extremely high, the only saving grace is that the bookshelves and major bookstores are far less influential than in the past. If you really want a book on the shelf, find an agent and a traditional publishing route.

Jeff

My bold.

Those bookshop shelves still have a big impact on book sales. Lots of online sales happen after a reader has selected the book in a physical shop, but has chosen to buy it online because it's cheaper there. Don't dismiss bookshops so easily.

Pixelated Porn said:
Hold on, I cannot wrap my head around someone on a writing forum possibly wanting a huge bookstore chain to fail.

It made me wonder too, Ms Pixel.

Denevius · Jul 18, 2016

Barnes and Nobles bookstores are far and in-between now, so I'm not sure how useful this will be. In Atlanta, I can only picture two, and last time I was in the city a year ago, I think one of them had closed down.

One interesting thing about Korea is the proliferation of independent bookstores. There are *really* a lot of them. But then, I don't think big chain bookstores ever took off here. Not nearly enough space.

I think the image of your book on a bookshelf in a bookstore is nice, but I don't think it does much for sales. When I self-published my collection back in 2003, I sold about 800 copies, but only about five of those sales came from a couple of independent bookstores I approached to stock my book.

DancingMaenid · Jul 18, 2016

Old Hack said:
I can't help being deeply skeptical about this.

First, very few self published writers are going to sell 500-1000 print copies of their books.

Maybe I read it wrong, but my understanding is that you have to sell 1000 digital copies of your book to qualify, not 1000 print copies.

Roxxsmom · Jul 18, 2016

Selling 1000 copies, even e-copies, on nook press might be quite a challenge, even for books that are doing a fairly brisk business on Amazon. Trade-published books seem to have pretty anemic sales on B&N online, compared to outlets like Amazon. I've left reviews for some trade-published books I've purchased on B&N's site, and there are usually only a handful of other reviews posted. This is quite a contrast to the number of reviews I see on Amazon, even for relatively unpopular books. I don't know if this is an exact indication of sales figures, but it does suggest that they don't move that many. So I have to wonder how many e-copies the typical self-published author sells on B&N. Nowhere near 1000 copies, I'm guessing.

Still, this might encourage more people to make their self-pubbed books available via B&N's e-press, on the outside chance they reach that level of popularity. I'm unsure if it will result in more sales of self-published books by B&N's online store (which is what they want, I assume).

RightHoJeeves · Jul 18, 2016

Denevius said:
Barnes and Nobles bookstores are far and in-between now, so I'm not sure how useful this will be. In Atlanta, I can only picture two, and last time I was in the city a year ago, I think one of them had closed down.

One interesting thing about Korea is the proliferation of independent bookstores. There are *really* a lot of them. But then, I don't think big chain bookstores ever took off here. Not nearly enough space.

I think the image of your book on a bookshelf in a bookstore is nice, but I don't think it does much for sales. When I self-published my collection back in 2003, I sold about 800 copies, but only about five of those sales came from a couple of independent bookstores I approached to stock my book.

Same as in Australia. It seems that most chain bookshops disappeared, and the remaining independents are doing quite well. I do also wonder the usefulness of having a book in bookshops. If I were to go to the SF/Fantasy section at the local independent bookshop, I'd say at least 70% of the shelf space is taken up by things they know are going to sell like Wool, Stephen King, A Song of Ice and Fire, Tolkien, Harry Potter and other classics like Asimov or Dick.

I'm not saying it wouldn't help to have your book in stores, but it seems the majority of shelf space is taken up by the 1%. Not blaming the bookstores by the way. I'd definitely do the same thing if I owned one.

Old Hack · Jul 18, 2016

Denevius said:
I think the image of your book on a bookshelf in a bookstore is nice, but I don't think it does much for sales. When I self-published my collection back in 2003, I sold about 800 copies, but only about five of those sales came from a couple of independent bookstores I approached to stock my book.

Bookshop presence can be a significant thing, but for it to work properly you need to be with a publisher which has full distribution and a sales team working on getting your book into all those bookshops.

If you don't have that, of course you're not going to see the sales you should. If your book is only in a handful of shops, and if it isn't included in any significant promotions, then your sales are likely to be woeful.

And don't forget that a large proportion of online sales are made to people who saw the book in a physical shop but decided to see if it was cheaper online. Which it probably was. So a strong bookshop presence increases your online sales too.

DancingMaenid said:
Maybe I read it wrong, but my understanding is that you have to sell 1000 digital copies of your book to qualify, not 1000 print copies.

Thank you, you're right! From the link upstream, these are the requirements:

[FONT=Napco_2]But the devil’s in the details: the program is for “eligible” NOOK Press authors, defined as “those print book authors whose eBook sales [of a single title] have reached 1,000 units in the past year.” The in-store promotion is for “those print book authors whose eBook sales [of a single title] have reached 500 units in the past year.”[/FONT]

Those sales figures are still going to be difficult to match, I think.

Roxxsmom said:
Selling 1000 copies, even e-copies, on nook press might be quite a challenge, even for books that are doing a fairly brisk business on Amazon. Trade-published books seem to have pretty anemic sales on B&N online, compared to outlets like Amazon. I've left reviews for some trade-published books I've purchased on B&N's site, and there are usually only a handful of other reviews posted. This is quite a contrast to the number of reviews I see on Amazon, even for relatively unpopular books. I don't know if this is an exact indication of sales figures, but it does suggest that they don't move that many. So I have to wonder how many e-copies the typical self-published author sells on B&N. Nowhere near 1000 copies, I'm guessing.

Still, this might encourage more people to make their self-pubbed books available via B&N's e-press, on the outside chance they reach that level of popularity. I'm unsure if it will result in more sales of self-published books by B&N's online store (which is what they want, I assume).

Yep.

Barnes & Noble to sell self-published books in stores.

Sword&Shield

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