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Thread: Again. Shot Dead While (apparently) Reaching For License as Instructed

  1. #126
    Did...did I do that? cmhbob's Avatar
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    They'd previously encountered her with scissors, apparently.

    And even if a TASER had been deployed, the other officer would have had their weapon out. But a knife is lethal force, and TASERs aren't supposed to be used against lethal force.
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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    They'd previously encountered her with scissors, apparently.

    And even if a TASER had been deployed, the other officer would have had their weapon out. But a knife is lethal force, and TASERs aren't supposed to be used against lethal force.
    Friday, I used a simple blocking maneuver and a calm voice to disarm a violent and mentally disturbed individual armed with a knife actively coming after me. I did this while unarmed myself.

    I ask again, why do we hold cops to such low standards?
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  3. #128
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venavis View Post
    Friday, I used a simple blocking maneuver and a calm voice to disarm a violent and mentally disturbed individual armed with a knife actively coming after me. I did this while unarmed myself.

    I ask again, why do we hold cops to such low standards?
    You clearly have astonishing skills, both mentally and physically. You're able to talk mentally disturbed people into dropping their weapons, or if that fails, disarm them with your physical prowess without harming them. Not everyone possesses such outstanding abilities, no matter what their training.
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  4. #129
    The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid Lillith1991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    You clearly have astonishing skills, both mentally and physically. You're able to talk mentally disturbed people into dropping their weapons, or if that fails, disarm them with your physical prowess without harming them. Not everyone possesses such outstanding abilities, no matter what their training.
    Then maybe they shouldn't be officers. It's a hard job that includes their lives and the lives of others, including suspects who are disabled and/or mentally ill, being put at risk if something goes wrong. Getting everyone out of such an intense situation alive, preferably uninjured as well, should be the top priority at all times.

    Also, such sarcasm is highly unwarranted. Cops in other nations are capable of dealing with similar situations without even carrying a firearm depending on the country in question. There is no reason that, if they're not being shot at, our officers should not be as capable and as skilled in the same tactics. A need for modification to the approach is NOT an excuse to not even try.
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  5. #130
    lethargically ardent, fervidly agog JCornelius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillith1991 View Post
    /.../ Cops in other nations are capable of dealing with similar situations without even carrying a firearm depending on the country in question. There is no reason that, if they're not being shot at, our officers should not be as capable and as skilled in the same tactics. A need for modification to the approach is NOT an excuse to not even try.
    Indeed, there's a world of difference between a policeman or woman drifting over and saying "what's all this then?" and instantly whipping out a pistol and screaming "get down on the ground!". Or, on one hand, knocking on your door demanding that you open up, before breaking it in if you don't, and on the other hand taking it down with a controlled explosion with no warning, coming in with body armor, rifles, dogs, gas grenades, with armored vehicles outside and stuff, because bitter retiree/laid off blue collar neighbors who have not grasped the concept of freelance work and believe if you sit at home all the time but can afford stuff you must be a drug kingpin and made this clear in a phone tip off.

    One can't help thinking that the Old World approach really is about keeping the peace and resolving situations between free citizens, while the New World is about overwhelming and cowing a subjugated populace. If one wants to examine the difference between "systematic approach" and "rotten apples within the force", it pays to take a look at the European incidents of police brutality. There you have racism (against immigrants mainly in the western half, against the local Roma mainly in the eastern half), in the hands of the bad apples people are beaten, humiliated, or they even die, but this happens within the context of an "what's all this then" approach, not within the context of "he shot himself in the back ten times even as I begged him to stop".

    Crazy people with knives (or baseball bats or what have you), who are not on a killing rampage, with a trail of bodies on the street behind them, are generally either talked down or overpowered, as opposed to instantly riddled with bullets.

    The boundaries are different within the mass psyche of society, cops included. If they are sadistic freaks who see an opportunity to indulge in their psychopathy because the victims looks like he or she has no powerful connections and there are no immediate witnesses, the cops may slap the victim around, demand a blowjob, take a demeaning photo, or go deeper into the hole and chain the victim and break a few bones, or even be careless enough to cause death through accident, but their first thought isn't going to be to empty a pistol into the victim.

    In this sense (anti-establishment activism aside), the average Jo or Jane has a vastly higher chance of survival when encountering Russian or Chinese cops. Sure, money may change hands, or maybe some roughing up will happen, but simply shooting someone down--only inside some currently designated "martial law anti-terror" area. In "normal" areas, it won't happen that way.

    Then again, evil Russia and China have considerably lower incarceration rates that the US. It appears, political talk aside, that the US establishment believes, and has believed for decades, that the US can maintain its existence only through being the most prison-oriented society on Earth, and through "shock and awe" tactics by law enforcement even in situations in which in any other more or less civilized country a cop would lazily stroll over and at most ask to see one's papers and then a pat-down if something fishy is in the air.

    Overwhelming police violence and incredible incarceration rates--does this really equal the survival of the US in its current form? The institutions obviously seem to think so. Perhaps, if one was ever to have an honest conversation with Institution Ike about this, Ike would point southward and say something like: "We're a wild and new continent. Blood runs hot here. If we stop the insane clamping down on our population even for a bit, shit will erupt and overwhelm us and we'll turn into Brazil or even Honduras before you can say where's my revolver."

    One would then point out Canada to Institution Ike, who would counter that the US is the buffer between Canada and the rest of this turbo-violent continent, and that were it not for the US paying a terrible price for absorbing and harnessing the crazy energy of the continent, Canada would have to do the same.

    And then one would say that Russia and China also have enormous borders with* insanely violent places, for example Central Asia with all the Afghanistans and Pakistans, and the Caucasus Mountains with them Chechynas and Dagestans, and Institution Ike would say "Exactly, and what do they do? They have militarized buffer zones there, to not let the crazy in, and only become touchy feely about policing outside those zones. We, the US, cannot politically afford to have militarized policing zones in dangerous places, so in a sense we must turn the whole country into the middle ground between a militarized zone and normal policing."

    One would then point out that Europe is hemmed in by a) Russia, b) the Middle East, and c) Africa, and yet still functions in a "what's all this then" instead of "he made me shoot him" mode of policing. To which Institution Ike would undoubtedly give a sly grin and say "let's wait and see, shall we?"

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    Last edited by JCornelius; 06-20-2017 at 11:20 AM.
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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    You clearly have astonishing skills, both mentally and physically. You're able to talk mentally disturbed people into dropping their weapons, or if that fails, disarm them with your physical prowess without harming them. Not everyone possesses such outstanding abilities, no matter what their training.
    It's called deescalation techniques. They teach them to everyone in my company. It's an eight hour course they give to people, many of them right out of high school who get paid $9 an hour to work with these individuals.

    And we all do it.

    Interestingly, they actually teach these same techniques to cops in places like Iceland. Perhaps you should read up on how rare police shootings are in such places.
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  7. #132
    Have pen, will travel Cindyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus Coppertop View Post
    Proliferation of guns or proliferation of jumped-up arsehole cops?
    A friend's husband pulled a disabled man over, aimed his gun, shouted "Freeze, maggot!" and blew him away. The victim was driving with hand controls, FFS. Said cop spent many a year in the slam for that one.

    Some cops think they are God.
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  8. #133
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venavis View Post
    It's called deescalation techniques. They teach them to everyone in my company. It's an eight hour course they give to people, many of them right out of high school who get paid $9 an hour to work with these individuals.

    And we all do it.
    Wow. An eight hour course in de-escalation, which turns minimum-wage workers right out of high school into masters of conflict resolution, able to easily deal with armed mental subjects. I had no idea it was so simple. Cops must be really stupid, as well as brutal.
    Interestingly, they actually teach these same techniques to cops in places like Iceland. Perhaps you should read up on how rare police shootings are in such places.
    You might want to read up on Iceland and its unique, unbelievably homogenous population where homicides are unbelievably rare and whose culture makes comparisons to the US pointless.
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  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venavis View Post
    It's called deescalation techniques. They teach them to everyone in my company. It's an eight hour course they give to people, many of them right out of high school who get paid $9 an hour to work with these individuals.

    And we all do it.

    Interestingly, they actually teach these same techniques to cops in places like Iceland. Perhaps you should read up on how rare police shootings are in such places.
    Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about other members.

    Just as a general note, since I see the logs and IPs: This thread is currently being read and posted in by a wide variety of people many of whom are coming from IPs associated with treasury.gov, several police departments in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, a lot of people from DHS (department of Homeland Security—we've had a huge uptick in new members from DHS IPs this year, and a variety of other Federal agencies.

  10. #135
    Cultured vulture Albedo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AW Admin View Post
    Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about other members.

    Just as a general note, since I see the logs and IPs: This thread is currently being read and posted in by a wide variety of people many of whom are coming from IPs associated with treasury.gov, several police departments in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, a lot of people from DHS (department of Homeland Security—we've had a huge uptick in new members from DHS IPs this year, and a variety of other Federal agencies.
    Hmm, is it time to break out the tinfoil hat, or does this just mean a lot of public servants take up writing on the side?

  11. #136
    Did...did I do that? cmhbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AW Admin View Post
    Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about other members.

    Just as a general note, since I see the logs and IPs: This thread is currently being read and posted in by a wide variety of people many of whom are coming from IPs associated with treasury.gov, several police departments in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, a lot of people from DHS (department of Homeland Security—we've had a huge uptick in new members from DHS IPs this year, and a variety of other Federal agencies.
    This is the kind of stuff I geek out on.
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  12. #137
    Cultured vulture Albedo's Avatar
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    I do like the idea that this site is such a hotbed of radicalism we're being monitored by multiple governments.

  13. #138
    Herder of Hamsters AW Admin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albedo View Post
    Hmm, is it time to break out the tinfoil hat, or does this just mean a lot of public servants take up writing on the side?
    I would like to think that, but generally, they head right to this subforum.

    And mostly, they log in regularly and never post. So either they're legitimately logging in from work because we're a hot bed of free-thinking subversives or they're free loading writers wasting tax payer dollars.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    Wow. An eight hour course in de-escalation, which turns minimum-wage workers right out of high school into masters of conflict resolution, able to easily deal with armed mental subjects. I had no idea it was so simple. Cops must be really stupid, as well as brutal.
    Do feel free to keep making the sarcastic comments instead of acknowledging the point. It's very helpful to the conversation.

    The point you are trying very hard not to get is deescalation tactics work. They work well. They work so well, in fact, that minimum wage workers right out of high school are able to non-violently deal with the same kinds of situations cops routinely shoot people in. What should we take from that information?

    However, in the US, cops are often not taught these tactics. Instead, they are taught to do the exact opposite, and are thus generally the ones escalating the situation.

    However, you will find cops that are trained in such techniques and employ them. The problem is, well, let me show you a photograph and perhaps you can see the problem for yourself.

    https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...6a&oe=59D1606D

    Here, we see a man talking to a cop. The man is armed. The man actively has his hand on the gun. Note what the cop is doing. The cop is deploying a deescalation tactic. The deescalation tactic is working. What do you suppose is different about this situation? Why do you think deescalation was employed here and not in say, the case of Philando Castile?

    At the Bundy Ranch, people were actively pointing sniper rifles at the police. Why do you suppose they weren't immediately shot and were instead talked down?

    Quote Originally Posted by AW Admin View Post
    Perhaps you should stop making assumptions about other members.
    Perhaps you should explain what assumptions I have made?
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  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albedo View Post
    Hmm, is it time to break out the tinfoil hat, or does this just mean a lot of public servants take up writing on the side?
    That's the case with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AW Admin View Post
    I would like to think that, but generally, they head right to this subforum.

    And mostly, they log in regularly and never post. So either they're legitimately logging in from work because we're a hot bed of free-thinking subversives or they're free loading writers wasting tax payer dollars.
    I do come straight here because I've always found this thread most interesting. I don't write as much as I'd like, but I do write. I don't have much time at work to check out the other sub-forums, so the time I do have I generally spend here.

    It probably looks like I'm always on because I always have the website up, and I'm always logged in. It's part of my "standard" websites I check when I get a break (others include my gmail and Google calendar)
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  16. #141
    Are you one, Herbert? Prozyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venavis View Post
    The point you are trying very hard not to get is deescalation tactics work. They work well. They work so well, in fact, that minimum wage workers right out of high school are able to non-violently deal with the same kinds of situations cops routinely shoot people in.
    Surreal.

    And one little, single, tiny cite showing minimum wage workers with 8 hours of training are more effective at conflict resolution than police would be nice.

    Waiting with bated breath....
    Last edited by Prozyan; 06-21-2017 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Haha, thanks Lisa
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  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    Surreal.

    And one little, single, tiny cite showing minimum wage workers with 8 hours of training are more effective at conflict resolution than police would be nice.

    Waiting with baited breath....
    I did provide a citation. This is my day job. I work with mentally ill individuals with violent tendencies and handle them with deescalation tactics instead of shooting them. Cops, dealing with a mentally ill woman with a knife, shot her. I, dealing with a mentally ill man with a knife, used deescalation techniques instead. One tiny little cite showing a more effective means of conflict resolution. Though I grant that as a supervisor, I do make more than minimum wage. However, it's the same training.

    But if you would like more information on the effectiveness of deesclation training :

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/0...ation-training
    https://www.theatlantic.com/national...rguson/383681/
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/inv...-not-warriors/
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...324-story.html
    https://www.policeone.com/use-of-for...policy-on-UOF/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298202/
    http://www.mdedge.com/currentpsychia...ndments-safety
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/u...-escalate.html
    http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/...g-saves-lives/
    Last edited by Venavis; 06-20-2017 at 10:09 PM.
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  18. #143
    Are you one, Herbert? Prozyan's Avatar
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    Anecdotal evidence =/= citations, but whatever. Thanks for the reading material even if it doesn't back up your claim.
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  19. #144
    Joker Groupie Celia Cyanide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Echo View Post
    I do come straight here because I've always found this thread most interesting. I don't write as much as I'd like, but I do write. I don't have much time at work to check out the other sub-forums, so the time I do have I generally spend here.
    There is always a lot going on at this subforum and new things to discuss. I don't usually post writing related forums unless I have a specific question about something I'm working on, or sometimes if there is a question in research that I know something about. I have been here for many years, and I have participated in discussions about prologues, fan fiction, etc about as many times as I need to.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozyan View Post
    Anecdotal evidence =/= citations, but whatever. Thanks for the reading material even if it doesn't back up your claim.
    Wow, you read all those links in ten minutes. Impressive.

    I am done.
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  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Echo View Post
    That's the case with me.



    I do come straight here because I've always found this thread most interesting. I don't write as much as I'd like, but I do write. I don't have much time at work to check out the other sub-forums, so the time I do have I generally spend here.

    It probably looks like I'm always on because I always have the website up, and I'm always logged in. It's part of my "standard" websites I check when I get a break (others include my gmail and Google calendar)
    Yeah, but you actually post, are a long-term active and engaged member. You're part of the community.

  22. #147
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venavis View Post
    Do feel free to keep making the sarcastic comments instead of acknowledging the point. It's very helpful to the conversation.

    The point you are trying very hard not to get is deescalation tactics work. They work well. They work so well, in fact, that minimum wage workers right out of high school are able to non-violently deal with the same kinds of situations cops routinely shoot people in. What should we take from that information?

    However, in the US, cops are often not taught these tactics. Instead, they are taught to do the exact opposite, and are thus generally the ones escalating the situation.

    However, you will find cops that are trained in such techniques and employ them. The problem is, well, let me show you a photograph and perhaps you can see the problem for yourself.


    Here, we see a man talking to a cop. The man is armed. The man actively has his hand on the gun. Note what the cop is doing. The cop is deploying a deescalation tactic. The deescalation tactic is working. What do you suppose is different about this situation? Why do you think deescalation was employed here and not in say, the case of Philando Castile?

    At the Bundy Ranch, people were actively pointing sniper rifles at the police. Why do you suppose they weren't immediately shot and were instead talked down?



    Perhaps you should explain what assumptions I have made?
    Nobody, least of all myself is suggesting the de-escalation training is not a good thing.

    But what you have done is to make unsubstantiated allegations that police are trained to escalate any confrontation instead of de escalating it, which is absolute fantasy. Formal de-escalation training has indeed been lacking, but police are quickly catching up. Here's a fair-minded look at the current situation from Police Magazine. I urge people to read the link; despite coming from police magazine is not a partisan defense of police tactics by any means.

    http://m.policemag.com/article/3022/...ng-to-back-off

    You also, by referencing your own individual experience with a patient, intimate that training in de-escalation techniques is so effective that anyone, with eight hours of training, can disarm any mentally unstable person wielding a knife with no problem and no consequences. This, unfortunately, is patently absurd.

    Among other things you fail to differentiate between a clinical setting where the patient is a known quantity, under treatment and familiar, with the outside world where police have no idea who the person is, what their background is, and how much of a threat that person may be. They are often in uncontrolled situations, with innocent people endangered as well as themselves.

    There is no doubt that there are some bad cops and some incompetent cops. Just like any other profession – there was expose of the horrific treatment of mental patients by staff on a bay area facility. Never for a moment did I assume that mental health workers on general are vicious sadistic monsters lacking a shred of compassion.

    Dealing with violent, mentally disturbed people on the street is a common and very difficult situation. Cops definitely do not always handle the situations as well as they might, and there has been serious efforts to improve this.

    But you have exhibited, imo, a simplistic lack of understanding, coupled with assumptions about police officers that bears little resemblance to reality.
    Last edited by rugcat; 06-20-2017 at 11:40 PM. Reason: Removed hot linked image in post quote.
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  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venavis View Post
    Friday, I used a simple blocking maneuver and a calm voice to disarm a violent and mentally disturbed individual armed with a knife actively coming after me. I did this while unarmed myself.

    I ask again, why do we hold cops to such low standards?
    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    You clearly have astonishing skills, both mentally and physically. You're able to talk mentally disturbed people into dropping their weapons, or if that fails, disarm them with your physical prowess without harming them. Not everyone possesses such outstanding abilities, no matter what their training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillith1991 View Post
    Then maybe they shouldn't be officers. It's a hard job that includes their lives and the lives of others, including suspects who are disabled and/or mentally ill, being put at risk if something goes wrong. Getting everyone out of such an intense situation alive, preferably uninjured as well, should be the top priority at all times.

    Also, such sarcasm is highly unwarranted. Cops in other nations are capable of dealing with similar situations without even carrying a firearm depending on the country in question. There is no reason that, if they're not being shot at, our officers should not be as capable and as skilled in the same tactics. A need for modification to the approach is NOT an excuse to not even try.
    I can find something to agree with in all of these statements, however, I'd like to add one more observance: as a society, we have tasked the police with a task we no longer want to be bothered with and they haven't been trained to do.

    I bow to no one in coming down like the wrath of the Almighty on police brutality and the gunning down of Black people by law enforcement officials and I am still angry by yet another cop walking for the death of a Black man.

    Betty Jo Shelby walked in Oklahoma for the killing of Terrence Crutcher. Jeronimo Yanez walked in Minnesota for the killing of Philandro Castille and I fully expect Ray Tensing in Ohio to walk for the killing of Samuel DuBose. What was once an aberration has now become an expectation.

    However, who was the genius who decided the best way to handle mentally ill individuals was to call a guy with a gun instead of one with professional experience with treating such people?

    Who thought it was a good idea to leave the dirty job of dealing with the mentally ill to law enforcement because the rest of us didn't want it?

    Quintonio LeGrier’s father called police after locking himself in a bedroom when his son menaced him with a baseball bat. When the police arrived, LeGrier, a 19-year-old with emotional problems, allegedly charged them with the bat. An officer shot him dead, and accidentally killed a neighbor as well.

    The heart-rending case is, tragically, almost routine. Consider two other recent cases. On December 29, Siolosega Velega-Nuufolau of Santa Nella, Calif., a 50-year-old woman with mental problems, was shot dead when allegedly charging a sheriff’s deputy with a kitchen knife. On December 19, police killed Ruben Jose Herrera, a 26-year-old Los Angeles–area man suffering from bipolar disorder, when he allegedly lunged for an officer’s gun in the hospital.

    For all the attention devoted to police-involved shootings and race, mental illness is the more salient issue. A joint report by the Treatment Advocacy Center and National Sheriffs’ Association in 2013 examined cases between 1980 and 2008, and estimated that roughly half involved people with mental illness. A Washington Post analysis of 1,000 fatal police shootings in 2015 puts it at about a quarter.

    These shootings are another tragic symptom of our contemptible outsourcing of the severely mentally ill to law enforcement. The police are our de facto front-line mental-health workers — “armed social workers” in the pungent phrase of one observer — and jails are our de facto psychiatric-hospital system.

    In its analysis of 2015 police shootings, the Post found dozens of cases in which the police were called as a means of getting treatment. Shirley Marshall Harrison called the Dallas police when her schizophrenic, bipolar son was out of control. He was shot down while allegedly charging police with a screwdriver. “I didn’t call for them to take him to the morgue,” she said of the cops. “I called for medical help.”

    It’s a poignant lament, but why do the families of the severely mentally ill need to rely on the police for medical assistance? When someone has a heart attack or gets cancer, we don’t call the police.

    The answer is simple. In response to abuses, we emptied out mental institutions, but didn’t make adequate provisions for otherwise treating the severely mentally ill, who are often left to suffer their delusions with overwhelmed, often frightened family members, or to rot on the streets or in jails. “There are less than 100,000 seriously mentally ill in psychiatric hospitals being cared for by the mental health system,” D. J. Jaffe, the executive director of Mental Illness Policy.Org, writes. “But there are 365,000 incarcerated. There are also 770,000 on probation or parole and 165,000 homeless.”
    I'm hardly a fan of the National Review, but even a blind pig can find a truffle and the title of the essay is essentially accurate: we have outsourced the mentally ill to the police.

    Since the police have been appointed the first responders in dealing with these matters, they should either be better trained on how to do so (a lower-cost and highly suspect "solution") or our medical professionals and politicians need to get more involved in taking this task off of the shoulders of the police.

    This may not have saved the life of Charleena Lyles, (and this is only an assumption as all the details have not yet been shared with the public) but perhaps it might have led to a better end to a situation when a knife-waving woman won't respond to commands to drop it.

    It's good to know Venavis possess the exposure, experience and training how to react and handle an agitated individual who is poised to possibly do harm to themselves or to others. Still, it is unrealistic to expect current or former law enforcement officers such as rugcat or cmhbob to be put in the same situation and told to to wing it when they may not have the necessary exposure, experience, and training.

    Such scenarios tend to lead for unhappy endings for all involved. This is a dire situation which has been put on the shoulders of the police and we can put them on blast when they don't carry that weight, but it's not entirely fair to apply law enforcement solutions to a mental health problem.
    Last edited by nighttimer; 06-20-2017 at 10:46 PM.
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  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighttimer View Post
    It's good to know Venavis possess the exposure, experience and training how to react and handle an agitated individual who is poised to possibly do harm to themselves or to others. Still, it is unrealistic to expect current or former law enforcement officers such as rugcat or cmhbob to be put in the same situation and told to to wing it when they may not have the necessary exposure, experience, and training.
    Which is why I strongly advocate for them to receive the training. The training itself is not difficult. As I stated, we go into this situation with eight hours of training. However, we also go into it without a badge and a need to get into power struggles.

    The increase in police militarization is a major factor in the problem. That kind of training is actively unhelpful. One of the major reasons I can do what I do is that I don't come in looking like a threat or antagonist. I can build trust because I don't come charging in like the enemy. I also don't come in treating them like the enemy. That's 90% of de-esclation right there.

    Such scenarios tend to lead for unhappy endings for all involved. This is a dire situation which has been put on the shoulders of the police and we can put them on blast when they don't carry that weight, but it's not entirely fair to apply law enforcement solutions to a mental health problem.
    I don't completely disagree. That's one of the major reasons I'm pretty much willing to fire someone for calling the police in to deal with a problem unless it fits a very, very strict set of criteria. I actively dread that they often show up when the fire department or ambulance is called because half the time I end up having to deploy de-esclation tactics on them. Really not a fan of having guns pointed at me while I'm trying to explain to someone that the person they are screaming instructions at isn't obeying because they are autistic to the point of near catatonia. More than once I've had to stand between a client and a police officer because the police officer is the active threat in the situation.

    The US has a really screwed up way of dealing with mental health, and sadly thanks to the GOP it's largely getting worse. My team really should be making a hell of a lot more than minimum wage for the work they do, but apparently, what we do isn't seen as valuable.

    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    But what you have done is to make unsubstantiated allegations that police are trained to escalate any confrontation instead of de escalating it, which is absolute fantasy.
    You will find a lot of links above substantiating that allegation.
    Last edited by Venavis; 06-20-2017 at 11:02 PM.
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  25. #150
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    Regarding de-escalation, American Public Media did a piece I heard on NPR. Here is the written version. The truth is, police forces get little or no training in de-escalation. It's a travesty, because we are asking more than ever of our police officers--be cops, psych counselors, EMTs--but neglecting to provide good tools. For all the time cops spend on the gun range, de-escalation training time is limited to an hour per year, if we're lucky. One. Hour. From the above link:

    In Georgia, one of the states that until recently did not have mandatory in-service de-escalation training for police, most police departments and sheriffs' offices have little, if any, de-escalation training. Most — 385 of the 582 — departments analyzed had fewer than one hour per officer over the past five years. The ones with training are scattered from the urban Atlanta area to rural parts of the state. Starting this year, however, all officers will be required to take one hour of de-escalation training annually.
    There is also the issue of police officers being reluctant to change their tactics. I get it. They want to come home safe, but if you heard the recording of the Seattle incident, it's obvious there was little (no) effort put into de-escalation. It was "Put down the knife" and "bang." The time between the order and the shot was mere seconds. The officers were in flak vests, they'd been to this residence, 2 males vs. one female. If ever a case for de-escalation could be made, it was this one.

    But in Los Angeles, where de-escalation policies are being instituted, this is the response:

    MCEVERS: You talk about how chiefs in certain departments have adopted this. I wonder about how the rank and file feels about it. You know, it's one thing for the brass to say, we need to make this change. How are officers taking this change as far as you know?

    DOMANICK: Well, the Police Protective League, which is the union here in Los Angeles, is vehemently opposed to it.
    Is there really any argument that it wouldn't be better for everyone if our police officers had the kind of training that would make them feel confident enough defusing situations that firing their weapon was a last resort?
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