Again. Shot Dead While (apparently) Reaching For License as Instructed

cmhbob · Jul 13, 2016

Sorry about the size; didn't think to reshare and repost. Too much multitasking while posting.

And yes, my point in posting it was to counter the claims that he didn't have a permit, because so many were claiming that he didn't, and I was wondering if he had a carry permit or a purchase permit. My source was another forum, and a poster I trust there. It appeared to me to be a valid letter, and not 'shopped. James seems to have found the original source.

And cornflake, I agree the "justification need" is a problem. It seems to come mostly from people who look a lot like me (conservative white males), and I don't like that.

If he had a valid permit, and it appears he did, and he was driving his car, not hers, then his permit should have come up when the officer first ran his tags, and should have lowered the officer's stress level from, "Holy crap, that guy looks JUST LIKE AN ARMED ROBBERY SUSPECT WHAT IF HE'S GOT THE GUN WITH HIM I BETTER BE ON HIGH MAXIMUM ALERT!" to "Huh. Looks kinda like that suspect description. But he's got a carry permit. So it won't be too surprising to see a gun."

cornflake · Jul 13, 2016

Considering the way in which he resembled a suspect was "wide-set nose" I don't think 'looks just like...' anything was in play so much as DWB, same as the other 30 odd times he was pulled over. I wonder how many of those stops started with him resembling a suspect for something.

The justification - often based on things having absolutely nothing to do with the incident in question - has jumped the shark with Castillo, imo.

It's stupid regardless. The endless combing through of peoples' entire life histories to find a way in which they deserved to be killed by cops is blatant and ridiculous. Trayvon Martin once texted someone about something illegal! Eric Garner sometimes sold loose cigarettes (but wasn't that day)! He might have had a warrant! True or not, they had nothing to do with George Zimmerman's actions, a chokehold and cops and EMTs ignoring someone laying on the ground saying he could not breathe, chasing down and shooting someone in the back seven times following a traffic stop.

This though, looking for some justification in this, when, if Castillo were white, there'd be no 'I heard he was a Crip' idiocy?

He was close to as clean as a person gets. Beloved school worker. Longtime relationship. Toddler. Yet still - maybe he didn't have a permit, thus he ... what? Was hiding his gun? Then the cop wouldn't have known he'd have had it. Was going to pull the gun and shoot the cop? Doesn't seem logical. Told the cop he had a permit but the cop knew he was lying, so got really nervous? I mean there's no way I can see that his not having a permit would have anything to do with any even possible justification. It's just 'he's a big, bad, black criminal,' fodder.

He might have been a Crip. Lot of them work for the Montessori schools I hear.

I don't mean posters here are saying that stuff, for the record.

BenPanced · Jul 13, 2016

41 protestors arrested and charged for blocking I-35W in Minneapolis during rush hour.

Shadow Dragon · Jul 13, 2016

The local Fox station put up an article proving that he had a permit to carry: http://www.fox9.com/news/173548963-story

Vince524 · Jul 14, 2016

cornflake said:
Considering the way in which he resembled a suspect was "wide-set nose" I don't think 'looks just like...' anything was in play so much as DWB, same as the other 30 odd times he was pulled over. I wonder how many of those stops started with him resembling a suspect for something.

The justification - often based on things having absolutely nothing to do with the incident in question - has jumped the shark with Castillo, imo.

It's stupid regardless. The endless combing through of peoples' entire life histories to find a way in which they deserved to be killed by cops is blatant and ridiculous. Trayvon Martin once texted someone about something illegal! Eric Garner sometimes sold loose cigarettes (but wasn't that day)! He might have had a warrant! True or not, they had nothing to do with George Zimmerman's actions, a chokehold and cops and EMTs ignoring someone laying on the ground saying he could not breathe, chasing down and shooting someone in the back seven times following a traffic stop.

This though, looking for some justification in this, when, if Castillo were white, there'd be no 'I heard he was a Crip' idiocy?

He was close to as clean as a person gets. Beloved school worker. Longtime relationship. Toddler. Yet still - maybe he didn't have a permit, thus he ... what? Was hiding his gun? Then the cop wouldn't have known he'd have had it. Was going to pull the gun and shoot the cop? Doesn't seem logical. Told the cop he had a permit but the cop knew he was lying, so got really nervous? I mean there's no way I can see that his not having a permit would have anything to do with any even possible justification. It's just 'he's a big, bad, black criminal,' fodder.

He might have been a Crip. Lot of them work for the Montessori schools I hear.

I don't mean posters here are saying that stuff, for the record.

Clearly he had a legal permit for the gun, but yes it would make a difference if that wasn't true. We're being told that he said to the officer that he had a permit and was carrying. If he didn't have a permit, then it would be very unlikely that he would say that, wouldn't it?

It's a moot point, as again, it would seem to be evident that he did, but saying it makes no difference is wrong.

cornflake · Jul 14, 2016

Vince524 said:
Clearly he had a legal permit for the gun, but yes it would make a difference if that wasn't true. We're being told that he said to the officer that he had a permit and was carrying. If he didn't have a permit, then it would be very unlikely that he would say that, wouldn't it?

It's a moot point, as again, it would seem to be evident that he did, but saying it makes no difference is wrong.

He still might have said he had a gun.

Or he would not have, in which case, makes the cop seem even more unhinged, I suppose, if he asked for a license, Castillo said nothing, reached for his license and the cop shot him?

At no point does the cop indicate he shot because he saw a gun, so if the idea is Castillo said he had a permit but did not, or said he had a gun but didn't mention a permit, no, that doesn't make a difference as far as I can see.

Vince524 · Jul 14, 2016

cornflake said:
He still might have said he had a gun.

Or he would not have, in which case, makes the cop seem even more unhinged, I suppose, if he asked for a license, Castillo said nothing, reached for his license and the cop shot him?

At no point does the cop indicate he shot because he saw a gun, so if the idea is Castillo said he had a permit but did not, or said he had a gun but didn't mention a permit, no, that doesn't make a difference as far as I can see.

Again, what he may or may not have done if the gun was illegal is moot, since it was, but we don't have a record of what happened until after the shooting. So if it had been an illegal gun, it wouldn't be unimportant.

As far as what did happen, the tape has the cop saying he told him to keep his hands off of it.

The officer still sounds distressed as he explains, "I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand off it."

At the same time, the girlfriend is saying, ""Please, officer, don't tell me that you just did this to him. You shot four bullets into him, sir. He was just getting his license and registration, sir."

So it's still not clear what happened. Was the officer clear in his instructions? Was Castile's reaching for a gun, or just a registration?

Some of these answers might be available if the cop had a body cam, so again, we need those. And nobody should read this as assuming the cop did nothing wrong, as I'm far from that conclusion. But this is why you have investigations and if they want a conviction, they're going to have to provide some of these answers.

cornflake · Jul 14, 2016

Ok, so if we take 'I told him not to reach for it,' as referring to the gun, why would it matter if he had a valid permit or not?

He apparently also told him to get his license.

So let's go with he has no valid permit. The cop apparently doesn't know that. How does that change the interaction? The cop does know that (which obviously isn't possible, as he did have a permit). How does that change the interaction?

He was sitting in the car and was told to get his license. He either told the cop or did not that he had a gun. It makes more sense to me that he did, as that's what the gf says and also makes sense with the above line from the cop.

Presume he didn't have a permit. What difference does it make in that interaction? I really don't get it.

robjvargas · Jul 14, 2016

The validity of the license is a red herring, seems to me.

I haven't seen any real evidence that he did not announce he was carrying. If he announced this, the officer had no reason to react so violently as to effectively blow the guy's arm off (if I'm not mixing up the incidents). Valid license, invalid license, there was no opportunity to investigate this, as the officer reacted to information with violence.

Williebee · Jul 14, 2016

The permit argument is a red herring. Please, move on.

tiddlywinks · Jul 14, 2016

cmhbob said:
If he had a valid permit, and it appears he did, and he was driving his car, not hers, then his permit should have come up when the officer first ran his tags, and should have lowered the officer's stress level from, "Holy crap, that guy looks JUST LIKE AN ARMED ROBBERY SUSPECT WHAT IF HE'S GOT THE GUN WITH HIM I BETTER BE ON HIGH MAXIMUM ALERT!" to "Huh. Looks kinda like that suspect description. But he's got a carry permit. So it won't be too surprising to see a gun."

Point of clarification: I hope this isn't muddying the waters (please forgive me if so), but I've inquired with local law enforcement about this before and in Minnesota at least, the permit doesn't come up right at a cop's fingertips when he's running a person's information. Apparently the officer has to click through a screen or two to ascertain that information. That is generally why you are told to announce to the officer that you have a permit to carry, and to announce if you are carrying. They will then ask where the weapon is located on your person or in the vehicle.

Lyv · Jun 16, 2017

Minnesota Police Officer Found Not Guilty In Shooting Death Of Philando Castile

My editorial comment is that, in my opinion, this verdict is a travesty and another police officer got away with the murder of an innocent person of color. And that's how this keeps happening. There is no justice, no accountability in far too many (like, all of them?) cases like these.

ShaunHorton · Jun 16, 2017

Not just that, he was found not guilty of ALL charges, including endangerment for firing into the vehicle with Castillo's wife and daughter inside.

If this isn't a travesty of justice, then there's no such thing.

Venavis · Jun 16, 2017

My mixed race nephew likes playing with water guns and is both ADHD and hard of hearing so doesn't always respond to instructions immediately.

Scares the crap out of me knowing some bigoted cop could wantonly kill him and get away with it.

cornflake · Jun 16, 2017

ShaunHorton said:
Not just that, he was found not guilty of ALL charges, including endangerment for firing into the vehicle with Castillo's wife and daughter inside.

If this isn't a travesty of justice, then there's no such thing.

It's sickening. He was afraid... of a guy who, sitting in a car with his baby strapped into her carseat, informed him he was carrying a licensed gun, as you're SUPPOSED TO, then followed his instructions to get his paperwork. Yeah.

Venavis said:
My mixed race nephew likes playing with water guns and is both ADHD and hard of hearing so doesn't always respond to instructions immediately.

Scares the crap out of me knowing some bigoted cop could wantonly kill him and get away with it.

The HH might be more worrying than the racial aspect. It's not as well known as the issues with police brutality directed at people of colour, but there is a long and troubling history of D/deaf and hard-of-hearing folks' interactions with law enforcement going south and ending in tragedy. It's prevalent enough that there are moves to increase training and awareness among law enforcement (it's very often 'didn't stop/respond to instructions; made threatening gestures/gang signs [which was just sign language]; or didn't drop whatever the person was holding or reached for something [because they didn't hear the command not to or were attempting to communicate') and there's advice on your rights and how to interact with police if you're stopped and D/deaf or HH, like this video with Marlee Matlin, hosted by the ACLU.

Venavis · Jun 16, 2017

cornflake said:
there's advice on your rights and how to interact with police if you're stopped and D/deaf or HH, like this video with Marlee Matlin, hosted by the ACLU.

He's twelve. And since he's black, you know any attempt to stand up for himself and stand on his rights is going to get him beaten or shot.

nighttimer · Jun 16, 2017

Lynching By Another Name

I'll leave this here and I don't disagree with a single, mad as hell, sick of the shit, pissed-off word of it.

It is impossible for justice to coexist with inequality. Justice is a constant—either it is or it isn’t. It is unflagging. The fact that it is applied to black lives arbitrarily and sparingly is proof that it doesn’t exist for us. We live under the delusion that there is something we can do to prevent our brains from being splattered onto a random sidewalk, but that is bullshit, too.

If you stand still, like Eric Garner, America will kill you.

If you drive away, like Sam Dubose, America will kill you.

If you walk away slowly, like Terence Crutcher, America will killl you.

If you run away, like Walter Scott, America will kill you.

If you fight back, like Trayvon Martin, America will kill you.

If you get on your hands and knees like Kenneth Walker, America will kill you.

And like Brendan Hester and Philando Castile, even if you comply with every word that you are told; even if you pose no threat; even if there is absolutely no reason for her to be afraid, America will pump bullets into a black body and never miss a minute of sleep in her comfortable bed at home, because America is an evil bitch.

Do not be mad at Yanez. He is a police officer, and we already know what they do. This is the fault of America. Yanez admitted that Castile didn’t pull out a gun. He conceded that Castile didn’t do anything dangerous. America is the one that let him go. Her laws. Her courts. Her criminal-justice system that fucks black men for half a joint but allows white killers their freedom, unmarred by their guilt.

Because America is bullshit.

cornflake · Jun 16, 2017

Venavis said:
He's twelve. And since he's black, you know any attempt to stand up for himself and stand on his rights is going to get him beaten or shot.

Ah; I didn't know he was that young. The video isn't just about standing up for your rights though -- it's got tips like how to show you can't hear, to remember not to touch an officer (as D/deaf and HH people use touch to get people's attention), but to wave or use voice if you speak...stuff to hopefully keep people from getting beaten or shot, at least for the misunderstandings that come from hearing issues.

Venavis · Jun 16, 2017

cornflake said:
but to wave or use voice if you speak...stuff to hopefully keep people from getting beaten or shot, at least for the misunderstandings that come from hearing issues.

Which work great for otherwise neurotypical white males. Anybody else not acting exactly the way the cops want them to is 'resisting arrest'.

I mean, FFS, remember this one? http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article90905442.html The white autistic man was incapable of cooperating with orders, so 'naturally' the cops shot the black guy.

AncientEagle · Jun 16, 2017

This is beyond sickening. We can't go on like this.

ElaineA · Jun 17, 2017

I'm just heartsick about this absolute failure of justice. To exonerate him on all charges...? What a travesty.

Myrealana · Jun 17, 2017

This verdict is sickening. I don't even know what else to say.

I want desperately to do something to make this better and I have no idea what that is.

MotherOfPoodles · Jun 17, 2017

Can't the Justice Department file civil rights charges against the--

Yeah, sorry, never mind.

nighttimer · Jun 19, 2017

AncientEagle said:
This is beyond sickening. We can't go on like this.

Sure we can. We can go on like this and we are going on exactly like this.

SEATTLE, WA - A 30-year-old mother of four was shot and killed Sunday morning by two Seattle police officers inside an apartment building in the Sand Point neighborhood. Seattle police are saying that Charleena Lyles allegedly "confronted" the two officers while holding a knife, which spurred them to open fire on her. The officers had responded to Lyles' apartment on a report of a burglary.

Lyles' killing has raised serious questions about the officers' use of force. Lyles' family questions why the officers, who are white, resorted to opening fire on a black woman while her children were nearby. Seattle police in 2012 entered into a settlement with the U.S. Department of Justice to fix use-of-force and bias problems within the department.

Two Seattle officers responded to the location due to safety concerns, the department said in a statement. Lyles' family told The Stranger that she had recently been released from jail. However, the Seattle Times reported that police were originally called to the building on a report of a shooting.

"Although this was a typical burglary report, two officers were required due to information pertaining to this address that presented an increased risk to officers," the Det. Mark Jamieson wrote in a statement.

Police have released few details about what happened next. After the officers went to the floor where Lyles lived, police said that the two responding officers "were confronted by a 30-year-old woman armed with a knife" and then they both "fired their duty weapons." Lyles' children were inside an apartment near where she was shot.

Monika Williams, Lyles' sister, told The Stranger that police should not have responded with such force.

"Even if my sister had a knife in her hand, she weighs like nothing, even if she's soaking wet," Williams told The Stranger. "There's no way you could've taken a taser and taken her down? There's no way you could've taken a baton and knocked the knife out of her hand?"

Venavis · Jun 19, 2017

I work with violent, mentally disturbed individuals. That is my day job. I routinely take weapons from them, and half my twitter feed is a list of reasons people have tried killing me.

I do not carry a weapon. It is extremely rare for the situation to actually reach the point of physical confrontation.

And not only do I go home safe, so do they.

Why? Because I employ deescalation tactics. I don't get into power struggles over them not respecting my authority. I recognize their basic humanity and treat them like people, with respect.

I got 8 hours of training before my first day of work. I get paid approximately a quarter of what a cop makes, and my benefits package is laughable. I will not get a pension, and I don't get a discount anywhere I shop.

Why do we routinely hold cops to such low standards?

Again. Shot Dead While (apparently) Reaching For License as Instructed

Did...did I do that?

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