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Thread: Again. Shot Dead While (apparently) Reaching For License as Instructed

  1. #1
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    Again. Shot Dead While (apparently) Reaching For License as Instructed

    The incident isn't on video this time -- the direct aftermath is. A cop pulls over a car driven by a black man for a broken tail light. His girlfriend and their four-year-old daughter were also in the car.

    According to the gf, the cop came to the window, asked for the driver's license, as you do. She says her bf informed the cop he was carrying a firearm (as you're supposed to), and reached for his wallet (as you do), in his pocket. So, naturally, the cop shot him four times. The woman then starts livestreaming what's happening.

    The cop keeps his weapon trained on the car's occupants, visibly, as the guy lays there, slipping out of consciousness, and the gf says things like 'you told him to get his license, sir.'

    The cop says he told him not to reach for it, presumably meaning the gun. There's confusion here (at least for me, from what I'm reading, as to whether his hand was reaching for his wallet, as instructed, or he was following the instruction to stop reaching and his hand was coming back UP, also as instructed, when he was shot) but neither way is really understandable to me.

    If this went the way it sounds like it did (and I have no idea what happened before the camera turned on), I don't quite understand the thought process behind 'person I have stopped and asked for a license just told me, as is proper, that he is carrying a firearm. He's reaching [for it?] so I'd better shoot him a lot.' Like, why, exactly, would he tell you, if he was going to pull the gun on you? He's a Bond villain who likes to lay out the plot? This trigger-happy shit has to stop.

    I get traffic stops are fraught. I don't get someone is cooperative, compliant and volunteering information, so the response is to shoot him a lot and then just stand there. It reminds me of the cop killed the guy in the stairwell in the Pink Houses in NYC and then just kind of stood there, didn't get help, didn't offer first aid, nothing.

    Story here - with video.

    Reynolds says ... that Castile was licensed to carry a weapon and told the officer he had a firearm as he reached for his wallet and ID. 'And the officer just shot him in his arm,' she says.
    'Ma'am, keep your hands where they are,' the cop says, sounding panicked. He then appears to shout 'F***!'

    'He just shot his arm off,' says Reynolds, maintaining her calm.
    'I told him not to reach for it!' the cop screams, sounding close to tears. 'I told him to get his hand open!'
    'You told him to get his ID, sir, you told him to get his driver's license,' she says. And suddenly the reality seems to hit her, as Castile appears to stop moving.
    'Oh god, don't tell me he's dead,' she says. 'Please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that... please don't tell me that he's gone.'
    He was dead. Cops then had her exit the car walking backwards toward them, got her down and handcuffed her. Obviously.

    A local story.

    Friends at the scene identified the man as Philando Castile, 32, cafeteria supervisor at J.J. Hill Montessori School in St. Paul...

    The girlfriend said on the video that the officer “asked him for license and registration. He told him that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him because he’s licensed to carry. The officer said don’t move. As he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in the arm four or five times.
    Friends at the scene identified the man as Philando Castile, 32, cafeteria supervisor at J.J. Hill Montessori School in St. Paul.

  2. #2
    Did...did I do that? cmhbob's Avatar
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    I carry.

    This has been one of my fears since I first started carrying. A former neighbor was an Ohio trooper. When Ohio gained shall-issue CCW, he told me that if he pulled someone over, and got the alert on his MDT that the driver had a permit, he'd walk up to the car with his gun out and screw it into the driver's ear. SMH.

    I just don't get this one.

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  3. #3
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    If what his gf says is what happened, that's what you're supposed to do. Tell a cop who approaches the car on a traffic stop that you have a weapon. That's the safe, responsible thing to do. Unless they then shoot you a lot.

  4. #4
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    The similarities between this and the one in Baton Rouge are striking. In both instances, the victim is carrying. And in both instances, the officer who fires appears to have panicked. The proliferation of guns in this country has created an untenable situation where there is no margin for error. This is madness.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Maze Runner View Post
    The proliferation of guns in this country has created an untenable situation where there is no margin for error.
    Proliferation of guns or proliferation of jumped-up arsehole cops?

  6. #6
    practical experience, FTW
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    There are so many guns on the street these guys are scared.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    he'd walk up to the car with his gun out and screw it into the driver's ear. SMH.
    And he's still alive?
    Last edited by Rufus Coppertop; 07-07-2016 at 03:36 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Maze Runner View Post
    There are so many guns on the street these guys are scared.
    Scared I get but if someone's so scared they're going to shoot a bloke dead for being-black-while complying-with-police, then they shouldn't be in uniform.

  9. #9
    practical experience, FTW StuToYou's Avatar
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    I guessing a lot of these incidents are related to a/ lack of proper training and recruitment of law enforcers, and b/the fact that guns are so available.

    Not rocket science really. I do think the former (training and recruitment) is probably the biggest issue. Proper training and recruitment is costly - including appropriate wages.

    I wonder if there's a comparison study between different law enforcers who undergo different training (from extensive to minimal and allowing for pop density and crime rate) and the respective 'bad shoot' outcomes.
    mostly.

  10. #10
    New year, new avatar. hester's Avatar
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    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2701935.

    The above deserves its own thread, but it's another example of police "shooting first and asking questions later." Trigger warning--the victim's girlfriend and a young child were in the back of the vehicle and witnessed everything. They also livestreamed the encounter (the video is graphic). It appears that the victim had a legal firearm (which was not why he was pulled over--he had a broken taillight). He informed the officer about the weapon and was reaching for his wallet when the cop shot him four or five times.
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  11. #11
    Mankind is my Business AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hester View Post
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2701935.

    The above deserves its own thread, but it's another example of police "shooting first and asking questions later." Trigger warning--the victim's girlfriend and a young child were in the back of the vehicle and witnessed everything. They also livestreamed the encounter (the video is graphic). It appears that the victim had a legal firearm (which was not why he was pulled over--he had a broken taillight). He informed the officer about the weapon and was reaching for his wallet when the cop shot him four or five times.
    There is a thread about this.
    http://absolutewrite.com/forums/show...-as-Instructed
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  12. #12
    Mankind is my Business AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    I carry.

    This has been one of my fears since I first started carrying. A former neighbor was an Ohio trooper. When Ohio gained shall-issue CCW, he told me that if he pulled someone over, and got the alert on his MDT that the driver had a permit, he'd walk up to the car with his gun out and screw it into the driver's ear. SMH.

    I just don't get this one.

    A starting link regarding Minnesota CCW rules and regs.
    This to my mind is one of the likely consequences of laws allowing people to carry. Because the time between gun in hand and gun fired can be so short, it is not unreasonable to be afraid of someone who is carrying, since they could literally kill you in the time it takes you to take your eyes off of them.

    The argument against this is that one should presume that everyone carrying is a responsible gun owner who would never shoot someone for no apparent reason. But that argument belies the major reason people say they wish to carry (for protection).

    I think it likely that we'll be seeing many more incidents like this.
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  13. #13
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    GOP: Get a gun!
    NRA: Get a gun!
    COP: He's got a gun!

  14. #14
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardGarfinkle View Post
    I think it likely that we'll be seeing many more incidents like this.
    If we do, shouldn't we see some white dudes getting shot? There seem to be a lot of white dudes with concealed carry permits. Where are the videos of them dying at the scene of what should have been a straightforward police interaction?
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  15. #15
    Inappropriately math-oriented. slhuang's Avatar
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    I sure hope we aren't victim-blaming here just because the murdered man happened to be legally carrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus Coppertop View Post
    Scared I get but if someone's so scared they're going to shoot a bloke dead for being-black-while complying-with-police, then they shouldn't be in uniform.
    This.

    There's a person responsible for this, and it sure as hell wasn't the person who was shot and left to bleed out while following the law and complying with police orders.

  16. #16
    Inappropriately math-oriented. slhuang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineA View Post
    If we do, shouldn't we see some white dudes getting shot? There seem to be a lot of white dudes with concealed carry permits. Where are the videos of them dying at the scene of what should have been a straightforward police interaction?
    If that happened, every single person in favor of the smallest measure of gun rights, plus the NRA, would collectively flip the country's table.

    I really, really fucking want that to happen this time, though I doubt it will.

    Incidentally, I've been long disturbed by people who seem to think the 2nd Amendment only applies to white men. IRL sometimes I feel like I'm the only fucking person talking about it. If gun people don't get up in arms (so to speak) about this, I will lose my shit.

    Let's be real. This wasn't about him carrying. This was about him being black.

    eta: To be clear, I'm speaking as a gun person myself who is angry at a group I consider to be my own community.
    Last edited by slhuang; 07-07-2016 at 07:54 PM.

  17. #17
    a demon for tea EMaree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maze Runner View Post
    There are so many guns on the street these guys are scared.
    If you're shoot-on-sight terrified of guns in a legal concealed carry state then you're not fit to carry a gun, let alone be an armed police officer.
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  18. #18
    Five by Five katiemac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katiemac View Post


    I agree that there are situations that cannot be de-escalated, and I do not expect an officer to never use the tools at their disposal, nor is there a handbook for every scenario. But the point that I was responding to above, that police are constantly in dangerous situations that we cannot begin to understand, is that the officers should understand these dangerous situations and how to respond to them. When one person does not know how to conduct him- or herself in a bad situation, a lot of people are in harm's way: bystanders, fellow officers, and the officer himself.
    Too often these cases look reactionary and not rational, which is as much of a fault of, if not more so, the training establishment than the individual person.

    I don't know how readily available counseling or other support is to most officers; my suspicion is that it is not, but it should be.

    Yesterday I said this about de-escalation, and today, in light of Philandro Castile, I would also like to add: "We know that police somehow manage to deescalate, disarm and not kill white people every day." - Jesse Williams.

  19. #19
    practical experience, FTW Tazlima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slhuang View Post
    I sure hope we aren't victim-blaming here just because the murdered man happened to be legally carrying.
    But he didn't have a criminal history, he wasn't a gang-banger, he wasn't disobeying the police, he wasn't suspected of any nearby crimes, and he even worked at an elementary school. How else are people supposed to blame the victim? If you can't pin his fate on his own actions in some way... why, anybody could find themselves killed during a traffic stop for some minor infraction *cough* Levar Edward Jones *cough*. That can't be right.

    Last edited by Tazlima; 07-07-2016 at 07:32 PM.
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  20. #20
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slhuang View Post
    Incidentally, I've been long disturbed by people who seem to think the 2nd Amendment only applies to white men. IRL sometimes I feel like I'm the only fucking person talking about it. If gun people don't get up in arms (so to speak) about this, I will lose my shit.

    Let's be real. This wasn't about him carrying. This was about him being black.
    I can't get past the feeling that, for many people who advocate these laws, they (the laws) are intended for white people to "protect" themselves from black people. That black people might also fear crime and interpret the second amendment in the same way and might be carrying guns for non-criminal reasons simply doesn't register.
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  21. #21
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slhuang View Post
    If that happened, every single person in favor of the smallest measure of gun rights, plus the NRA, would collectively flip the country's table.

    I really, really fucking want that to happen this time, though I doubt it will.

    Incidentally, I've been long disturbed by people who seem to think the 2nd Amendment only applies to white men. IRL sometimes I feel like I'm the only fucking person talking about it. If gun people don't get up in arms (so to speak) about this, I will lose my shit.

    Let's be real. This wasn't about him carrying. This was about him being black.
    Of course it was.

    There's a section of the video that's really sad - I mean it's all really sad, and infuriating and everything else - in which his gf feels the need to explain that her now-deceased bf has never been in jail, has had no trouble with the law, works for the school system, is not a gang banger, etc.

    Which would seem strange in a world in which the other thread about a cop killing a black man didn't have a post about the deceased's former felony conviction.

  22. #22
    Special Snowflake? No. Hailstone RedRajah's Avatar
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    It's why I'm horrified that more deaths will happen once the RNC hits Cleveland.

  23. #23
    I aim to misbehave Myrealana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald View Post
    GOP: Get a gun!
    NRA: Get a gun!
    COP: He's got a gun!
    An armed society is a polite society.

    Unless you're Black. Then you're dead.
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  24. #24
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slhuang View Post
    Let's be real. This wasn't about him carrying. This was about him being black.
    It certainly wasn't about his tail light. Both appear to be in working condition. (link goes to Twitter post)
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  25. #25
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMaree View Post
    If you're shoot-on-sight terrified of guns in a legal concealed carry state then you're not fit to carry a gun, let alone be an armed police officer.
    Sadly they rarely even get fired.


    Quote Originally Posted by cornflake View Post
    ...Which would seem strange in a world in which the other thread about a cop killing a black man didn't have a post about the deceased's former felony conviction.
    I haven't read the other thread but I'm confused how this was relevant one way or the other?

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