Again. Some More. Cops Shoot (Black) Man They'd Pinned Down.

Vince524

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Why don't we just go ahead and disband all police departments across the nation? No more police shootings, there, everyone is happy! We could self police.

Imagine the money saved by not paying millions of police across the nation. More money could be saved without the need for such a heavy-handed court system.

No more complaining about cops, nor calling them in an emergency, we would be accountable and responsible for 100% of our own safety. Life would be perfect!

That's a lot of stuff that nobody here is saying. In theory, everyone agrees we need police. They have a difficult job, and often risk their lives, but they are not above the law.


Have you ever done a ride-along with city, county or state police?

If not, I suggest you not only do one of each, but on a very regular basis, perhaps on Friday and Saturday nights of every week.

Blinders would have a better chance of being dislodged.

I'm serious, too. Contact your local police and see about taking part in ride-alongs.

While there's nothing wrong with wanting to understand the job of a police officer better, but the idea that you can't comprehend bad shootings otherwise is just silly.

Except, unlike me, police are supposed to be trained to know how to handle frightening situations without escalating them. [/COLOR]

Keep in mind that many situations can't be de-escalated no matter how well trained the officer or officers. Often when I hear this, it feels to me that it's way of saying that no matter the circumstances, if the officer used their sidearm, then it's their own fault for not being able to talk the person down from being a threat.

I fail to see how it matters if this guy was a gang member or not. All citizens have rights during an arrest. If the shooting was unjustified, it doesn't matter who he was or if he was breaking the law.

Sure, but in context if a shooting where the officers are going to claim that the suspect was fighting, it helps to add to the picture. It doesn't excuse just shooting him, but it can help understand the behavior.

Considering the past cop incidents, and the body cams coincidentally being misplaced or whatever, I don't blame people for being somewhat suspicious of cops. Even I'm getting suspicious, and I am one who usually tries to trust cops (even if they intimidate me).

I'm hoping the investigation will be unbiased and fair, but...for right now, this doesn't look good.

I'm not sure why the fact he's a democrat is being bolded in this quote...?

I haven't see the video, it didn't play for me. I don't know why. But the whole body came thing is rather suspicions.

I assume Rugcat was bolding the democrat part because he felt it was silly to point that out.
 

DancingMaenid

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Sure, but in context if a shooting where the officers are going to claim that the suspect was fighting, it helps to add to the picture. It doesn't excuse just shooting him, but it can help understand the behavior.

I agree that it can help provide context sometimes. But too many people are complacent about police violence because "if you don't break the law, you don't have anything to worry about." They don't care about the rights of "real criminals" and they're in denial about the fact that anyone can get arrested if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. They forget that being arrested isn't a punishment--it's a step in an investigative process that might end with someone released without charge. So I think it's important not to let cases like this get bogged down in a debate about the character of the person who was killed.
 

Vince524

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I agree that it can help provide context sometimes. But too many people are complacent about police violence because "if you don't break the law, you don't have anything to worry about." They don't care about the rights of "real criminals" and they're in denial about the fact that anyone can get arrested if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. They forget that being arrested isn't a punishment--it's a step in an investigative process that might end with someone released without charge. So I think it's important not to let cases like this get bogged down in a debate about the character of the person who was killed.

Yes, I agree, but it's going to come up and it should be weighed in, but in and of itself, it doesn't tell you everything you need to know.
 

rugcat

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Yes, I agree, but it's going to come up and it should be weighed in, but in and of itself, it doesn't tell you everything you need to know.
If a guy is a gang member with a history of felonies and weapons violations, I think that is relevant in assessing whether a police officer's account of a confrontation is believable.

Just like if a cop has a history of excessive force complaints, especially against minorities, that information is relevant as well in assessing his credibility.
 

Vince524

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If a guy is a gang member with a history of felonies and weapons violations, I think that is relevant in assessing whether a police officer's account of a confrontation is believable.

Just like if a cop has a history of excessive force complaints, especially against minorities, that information is relevant as well in assessing his credibility.

Yes, agree. However, if the cop, or in this case cops, had a history of excessive force complaints and it was brought up, nobody would question why it was relevant.
 

Latina Bunny

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Regardless of the guy's character, he's still dead, and I'm still wary about what I saw with my own two eyes in the first eyewitness video. (I'll have to watch that other video that supposedly gives a different perspective view of the scene. Perhaps that can give a better angle and shed some light?)

I also don't like how both of the cams "fell off" during such an incident. (I can believe it better if they said the guy pulled the cams off during the struggle, or if one cop's can fell off. But both? Bit weird. Must be horrible camera attachments, which definitly needs to be addressed somehow, maybe for the future.)

I'm still wary of this situation. I don't automatically take a cop's word for granted. There are some corrupt or power hungry cops out there. Cops are flawed humans as well.
 
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katiemac

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Originally Posted by katiemac
Except, unlike me, police are supposed to be trained to know how to handle frightening situations without escalating them.
Keep in mind that many situations can't be de-escalated no matter how well trained the officer or officers. Often when I hear this, it feels to me that it's way of saying that no matter the circumstances, if the officer used their sidearm, then it's their own fault for not being able to talk the person down from being a threat.

I agree that there are situations that cannot be de-escalated, and I do not expect an officer to never use the tools at their disposal, nor is there a handbook for every scenario. But the point that I was responding to above, that police are constantly in dangerous situations that we cannot begin to understand, is that the officers should understand these dangerous situations and how to respond to them. When one person does not know how to conduct him- or herself in a bad situation, a lot of people are in harm's way: bystanders, fellow officers, and the officer himself.
Too often these cases look reactionary and not rational, which is as much of a fault of, if not more so, the training establishment than the individual person.

I don't know how readily available counseling or other support is to most officers; my suspicion is that it is not, but it should be.

 
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RedRajah

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I'm still wary of this situation. I don't automatically take a cop's word for granted. There are some corrupt or power hungry cops out there. Cops are flawed humans as well.

And unfortunately Louisiana is notorious for corruption and incompetence in its police departments...
 

nighttimer

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There is an escalation press. I've had it demonstrated to me many times by different officers when I asked questions. If they don't follow procedure, they will be in different degrees of trouble for it, depending on the situation.

Unlike you, they have to fight for their lives on a constant basis, depending on where they are, obviously. That is why YOU need to begin participating in ride-alongs just for a tiny sliver of understanding.

No, I don't. No more than YOU need to walk around in a Black man's skin for a few days in a neighborhood where the police are viewed as occupiers instead of protectors. A hour's worth of a ride-along in a cop car no more means you understand what policing is anymore than getting a haircut in a Black-owned barbershop means you now understand Black people.

It is something of a given that any thread about a police-involved shooting will invariably pivot to the the reliable talking point of how police "have to fight for their lives on a constant basis." That's a truth more assumed than proven. In reality, while policing is not without its significant risks to life, limb and sanity, it doesn't even rank in the Top Ten of the most dangerous jobs in America.
The five most dangerous occupations remained unchanged from their 2013 ranking, while jobs involving construction, driving and repairs shifted slightly. Police officers became the 15th most dangerous job, up from 17th in 2013. But 2014’s 97 police deaths still remains below the 130 fatalities seen in 2011.

No shade at the police officers. Loggers may have the distinction of doing America's Deadliest Job, but they aren't being targeted and attacked by armed beavers and woodpeckers, and of the many ways cops lose their lives, gunfire has raced past auto accidents as the cause, however, most cops are not under the gun.

Personally, I have no horror stories to relate about my encounters with the police. I've never been hassled, disrespected, followed, or threatened by the police. Whenever I've dealt with the police they have been polite and professional. I've called them and met with them and talked with them on my front steps and in my living room. I acknowledge there are good police officers and bad police officers.

However, I also recognize there is a long and bloody relationship between cops and the Black community. Over the holiday weekend I watched all five episodes of the excellent ESPN documentary O.J: Made In America and two of the takeaways I took from the program was (1) He did it. (2) The LAPD's poisonous relationship with the Black community as exemplified by Mark Fuhrman contributed to the predominantly Black jury turning The Juice loose.

I have no idea if these Baton Rogue cops are good cops or bad cops. I do not know if the late Alton Sterling was a violent criminal or an innocent victim. What I do know a second video has emerged and the very dead Alton Sterling does not appear to have been as armed and dangerous as Officers Salamoni and Lake claim he was.

Once I was angry, then I became disgusted, transitioned to fatalistic cynicism and now I'm just fed up.

J.J. PITTS said:
People constantly make assumptions about things they have absolutely no idea about.

They certainly do. People constantly make assumptions about the infallibility of the police in things they have absolutely no idea about. That doesn't discourage them from offering an opinion about it anyway.
 
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Putputt

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I have no idea what happened with this event. I've not read about it or watched it on the news. I have however, watched other events that turned out to be justified.

What are you even doing on this thread if you haven't bothered reading about Alton Sterling's death or watched the video?? You seem to be assuming that the cops were justified simply because they're cops and they have to go through terrifying situations everyday on the job. Meanwhile, you haven't bothered looking up or reading about the case. What's that you were saying about assumptions again?
 

cornflake

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The clearer, second video, is in the story here.

If you watch, watch until the end few seconds, when you can see the cop reach into Sterling's pocket and take out his gun. He clearly knew where it was -- not in Sterling's hand.

One of the cops involved, Lake, was involved in the shooting of a black man two years ago, was suspended pending investigation, and reinstated. Most cops spend their careers without shooting a soul. This guy has been a cop for three years and, apparently, killed two black men.
 
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Williebee

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Mod Note:

Three things before this goes any farther --

1) Steady on, folks. Think before, during and after typing, And again before hitting the Post button.

2) We aren't outside. Treat each other like you belong here.

3) This is NOT the place for another gun rights debate. We have plenty of threads already for that. If you can't find one, let me know. I'll sticky one of them up top.

It is self-evident that this cultural and human problem is going to get worse before it gets better. Let's work on the latter together, okay?
 

nighttimer

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I have no idea what happened with this event. I've not read about it or watched it on the news. I have however, watched other events that turned out to be justified.

I applaud your candor. Not many people are so willing to admit they know nothing about the subject but still want to express a completely uninformed opinion.

:nothing

And if it happened like that, bad cops, will be put where they deserve, in prison.

Don't get me wrong, I don't defend bad cops, no one abhors them more than I do.

Please note based upon your posts in this thread, that's not exactly accepted as gospel.

You really should offer something a bit more measurable than "A ride-along will fix everything."