I don't know how you guys do it...

Oh, it's so early. Hang in there a bit. I wish I had something smarter to say, something that would take the sting out, but I'm not that good of a writer.

What I will say is that self-publishing to avoid the pain of rejection is probably the least of all reasons to do it.

Everything I'm about to say is meant in the nicest way, so please keep that in mind.

Four rejections is nothing, not even a drop in the bucket compared to what'll pile up in your inbox if you do this for any length of time. I've gotten dozens of rejections for the same short story, and goodness knows how many more the novel I'm pitching.

Rejection is part of the trade, and you'd better get used to it. You probably won't know why they don't like it, so it's pointless to wonder (but I do sometimes). If anything, rejection should be motivation to try harder and write better. I only published my first short story last year, after spending the preceding three years seriously writing and reading shorts.

Self-publishing won't make anything easier. Take it from me. I spent $1000 to have a fantasy novel printed that was terrible by any reasonable industry standard. It just wasn't good enough, and that's why it didn't sell. Looking back, it was a mistake, a shortcut to nowhere, the illusion of achievement. It's a huge investment, and these companies often do not offer any other services unless you pay for them. You will have absolute control, but also total responsibility for marketing, editing, and making sales happen.

If you give it your all, if you study writing and read a ton of stuff, if you spend time on here asking people questions and, above all else, if you KEEP WRITING, then you have a chance. No promises, but persistence is your greatest asset.

Do. Not. Quit.

Do. Not. Settle.

chracatoa said:

It's my first week trying - 12 queries (4 rejections, and 4 of the 8 outstanding are under top agents so it's under the Hail Mary category - they don't even reply to reject you) and I'm already hurt and thinking about self-publishing...

Reality check time -- 12 is a good-sized first submission pool, and a 1/3 rejection rate is not bad.

Many agents have gone to the no response means no method of rejection out of self-preservation. They got too many threats and insults when they tried to send even form rejections; it wasn't worth it.

If you're already "hurt" then you're not going to last in this business unless you toughen up. Self-publishing is a business decision, not a consolation prize.



How many is too many before I self-publish?

Some people get agents on the first go. Some wait years. You're still in the single digits on rejections, and most writers prepare for 100. That's not an exaggeration.

The worst part is that I'm not getting any feedback, they're all just form rejections.

I mean this in the most helpful way possible - that is NOT the worst part. It's not even a BAD part. You're not entitled to feedback. You have no more agreement with an agent that entitles you to feedback than you do with any other professional stranger you approach for anything.

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You're asking a question when you submit a query, and that question is: Will you represent me. They're giving you an answer, which is "no." That's all they're required to do.

Agents DO NOT get paid to answer queries. Reading queries / locating clients is something they do on the side, in their free time, and expecting them to burn through their free time to give you pointers when you're supposed to be a professional is unprofessional. It's an extremely common complaint, but not a realistic one. Agents get 100's / 1000's of queries. Feedback on all of them isn't feasible.

If you pass the 50 post mark here, you can take your query down to the Share Your Work area and post it for the feedback you want. The people here will help you. They don't get paid, either, but they're willing to use their time to help you improve.

chracatoa said:

It's my first week trying - 12 queries (4 rejections, and 4 of the 8 outstanding are under top agents so it's under the Hail Mary category - they don't even reply to reject you) and I'm already hurt and thinking about self-publishing...

How many is too many before I self-publish?

The worst part is that I'm not getting any feedback, they're all just form rejections.

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Well, here's a question;

What do you want from your book? Why do you want to publish?

The answer to those questions will give some idea as to which path is better for you.

chracatoa said:

Thanks for the replies. It does make sense. I guess this is the point of this post. I don't know how you do it. Hey, after all I'm just learning to have thick skin

I just would like to know if the book is good for those that like the style. With no feedback, it's hard to tell.

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Don't be discouraged. Four rejections is nothing!

But the best time to get feedback is before you submit your work to agents. Have you done that yet?

chracatoa said:

I had people looking and fixing my query, but I don't have feedback on my book. Where would I get it?

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As Cyia mentioned upthread, once you get to 50 posts you can post sections in Share Your Work for some feedback. Meanwhile, why not do some crits of other people's work. It's a very good way of learning how to identify what's good and bad about your own work.

chracatoa said:

And I don't expect them to give me feedback, I understand I get what I pay for. But sometimes you do get feedback and I hope someone will eventually do. I don't know why that makes me unprofessional. It's not if I'm complaining about specific agents or thinking what they do is unreasonable. In fact, if I were an agent I would probably do the same thing unless I rejected something that was almost good enough for my taste - and maybe not even that if it's a Friday before a 4th of July weekend. So I totally get it, but I don't have to like it.

By the way, if I do want to pay to have feedback where would I go?

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You absolutely don't have to like it. No one does, and most of us complain about it. Then someone comes along and smacks us in the face with a brick. It's a rite of passage. (What? You thought writers got headaches from eyestrain? Nah. It's the bricks.)

chracatoa said:

I don't know why that makes me unprofessional.

<<snip>>

By the way, if I do want to pay to have feedback where would I go?

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Cyia didn't say you were unprofessional - she said

expecting them to burn through their free time to give you pointers when you're supposed to be a professional is unprofessional.

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It's good to learn as much as you can about how the publishing thing works, and AW is a good place to learn. Also - we have SYW and beta-finding threads, so you're in the right place. Welcome!

Just keep on trying to improve in any way you can, and if you self-publish, do it because you think that's the best path for you and you have a passion for it, not because you consider it a fallback option!

Oh dear. One week and four rejections, and you're already considering self-publishing? Way, way premature. And self-publishing a first novel without the support of a publishing house is only going to lead to disappointment, unless you'd be happy to sell just a dozen or so copies.

One of the things writers need most is thick skin. Most of us aren't born with it, but those who stay in the business develop it. You just can't take rejections personally. There are lots and lots of reasons why agents say no, many of which are no reflection on the writer's talent. Unfortunately, agents don't have the time to explain why they say no, so lots of writers end up with piles of rejections and no idea of what went wrong.

I have two suggestions for you. One is to read this post, which talks about the ways in which rejection is actually an integral part of the process of learning to write--cod liver oil for writers, sort of. (At the very least you'll come away understanding that virtually every published writer you've ever read has gone through this process.) The second is to consider this offer, IF you keep getting rejections without explanations. I was an agent for 15 years and an editor at a major NYC publishing house before that, I and always felt bad for writers in your situation. It's a Catch-22: Writers don't get serious feedback until they sell their work, but it's very difficult to get to that point without feedback. So now I do my small bit to remedy that situation.

Good luck, and keep going!

One thing that really helped me make the transition to thicker skin and taking rejections less personally was looking at things from the agents' perspective. I follow a few agents on Twitter, and a couple things really stuck with me. First, one tweeted once that she'd gotten 500 queries that week. I thought about that volume of email, and how much my query would have to stand out for an agent to request more. Secondly, I read once somewhere that you should think about all the books you've read. Then think of how many of those books you really loved reading. THEN think about how many of those booked you loved that you would read again and again and recommend to everyone you know. THAT is how much an agent has to love your book to take it on. Because they're going to read it more than once, especially if you do edits, and then they have to sell it.

And while those things may sound discouraging, for me they helped me realize that those rejection emails aren't personal. And they're not saying your work sucks. They're just truly saying that book isn't for them. So keep querying. You'll hear over and over that it only takes one "yes."

Like Taylor said, persistence is key. It might take a little while, it may take a long long time. But if you stay in the game, eventually it will pay out.

Also some books do better than others (of your own inventory.) This book might not be it, but your second or third one might be.

My 4th book was published by a mid-size publisher and now I have 4 books I wrote after that that aren't doing so well. I'm getting lots of rejections. But I keep moving forward, write another book and move on again.

I know it sounds horrible to say,"write another book" but after you've tried your hardest (and 12 queries is nothing...that's not trying super hard, especially if you want to give up now) Like Cyia said, give it 100 rejections and maybe by then you can look for a publisher on your own. You can do it that way too and still have a traditional publisher. There are many places out there that take unagented submissions and that still pay advances and give you book placement in stores and all that so do NOT give up now. It's way too early in the game to do that.

There are other options if an agent doesn't work out. Just keep trying and keep sending stuff out. But for now, give it more time with the agents.

While it is possible to do well through self-publishing, moving over to that method after such a short time spent querying seems counterproductive. A lot of times self-publishing takes more persistence, and requires just as much of a thick skin, if not more. Sure, there's less rejections, but there's the howling void that is marketing, the brainsweat it takes to learn the various tools, and the frustration of tracking down and dealing with people to cover the areas you can't handle. (Cover art, for example. If you're artistically inclined and willing to research the standards and expectations you can mitigate that, but if not, the solution usually involves paying artistic people money.)

Which is why I asked "what do you want out of the book?"

Can you sort that out? If you can't, then keep querying. What have you got to lose?

I've never developed a thick skin, and I don't think I ever will.

What I did develop was the ability to keep writing when I feel like I'm terrible at it.

I nearly hung it up during the querying phase, so I know how much it hurts, trust me. And this is a good place to blow off steam. You'll feel what you feel, and some days it won't be so bad, and some days it will.

And maybe, unlike me, you'll learn to just shrug it off and keep going. But if you don't? You'll learn how to keep writing and submitting, even on the bad days.

As far as self-pub goes: it can be a great path, but yeah, get someone else (preferably several someone elses) to read the book for you first, and listen to what they tell you. We are our own worst critics in more ways than one.

lizmonster said:

I've never developed a thick skin, and I don't think I ever will.

What I did develop was the ability to keep writing when I feel like I'm terrible at it.

I nearly hung it up during the querying phase, so I know how much it hurts, trust me. And this is a good place to blow off steam. You'll feel what you feel, and some days it won't be so bad, and some days it will.

And maybe, unlike me, you'll learn to just shrug it off and keep going. But if you don't? You'll learn how to keep writing and submitting, even on the bad days.

As far as self-pub goes: it can be a great path, but yeah, get someone else (preferably several someone elses) to read the book for you first, and listen to what they tell you. We are our own worst critics in more ways than one.

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Growing thick skin doesn't mean rejection won't hurt or at least disappoint. It means, I think, protecting the inner core that tells you that you are a writer and this is your story; and just as you put everything you've got into writing it, you're going to put the same effort into getting it out there. As you have done and continue to do.

Although I will say that for me, rejection doesn't hurt now the way it used to. Partly I'm sure that's because my work has been validated through publication and critical attention; partly because I understand the business side of publishing, which pretty much ensures you don't take rejection personally; and partly because, all those business reasons aside, I believe that rejection can serve as a useful if painful form of quality control. Even good writers write stinkers now and then, and a dose of rejection can send the writer back for a more critical look at the work and maybe some useful revision.

There were times, in the sixteen years of writing and submitting short stories, poems, essays, queries for novels...where I just tossed the "no" responses away without batting an eye. Then there were times when it took me a half-hour or more of ranting to get past it.

There were times when my work was rejected over and over again, even after revisions, but then finally someone picked it up and paid me for it. There are other works that are collecting dust in my virtual folders.

If you really care about writing, you won't give up. You might take a breather but then get right back to writing, because it's what you have to do, need to do.

Oh, it hurts, and it never really stops hurting. The book that took me three years to write--I sent out 100 queries and only got 2 acceptances, both from small publishers rather than agents. I shopped it for over a year and was also close to self-publishing. I use this example to say, it's a marathon, not a sprint. If you really want an agent or publisher--and you need to decide what you most want, and then also decide what you're willing to live with--it's likely to take a while.

As for feedback, do you have a critique group? Beta readers? Or you could pay for an editor, I suppose, but you probably don't want to start shelling out money until the book is already in as good a shape as you can get it for free. Is it there? If you're sending out what amounts to a draft, that is most likely going to result in rejections.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the out of hand rejections don't bother me, I guess because I expect them. It's the close calls with an agent or a publisher that you'd really like to land that sting.

Maze Runner said:

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the out of hand rejections don't bother me, I guess because I expect them. It's the close calls with an agent or a publisher that you'd really like to land that sting.

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I agree! The "almost" is worse than the flat "no."

It's actually a little worse once you get the agent and then the book doesn't sell. So there's that to look forward to.

Two things on a practical note: The first, start writing something else. Just start writing.

The second, find a conference and talk to some agents. Just so you can see them as people, not abstracts, and maybe you'll get a feel for the realities of the industry.

You're not very deep in this yet -- there's a lot more heartbreak to come, so it's good to find a way to get perspective forced on you. Because you, like all of us, will need it.

I'm just super ambitious and driven. It's my nature to go after what I really, really want no matter how hard it is.

You're doing great! Four rejections hurts, I know it does, but remember: many authors pile on dozens and dozens before they get their agent. I think my agent rejection count was at least 60 (not counting the agents who never got back to me) before I got one yes. You only need one.

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Maze Runner said:

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the out of hand rejections don't bother me, I guess because I expect them. It's the close calls with an agent or a publisher that you'd really like to land that sting.

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Those are brutal, especially when you've built up expectations and hopes around them.