Pope says Christians should apologize to gay people

slhuang · Jun 27, 2016

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/26/world/pope-apologize-gays/

Item of note: The pope has still not come out and said so-called "homosexual acts" are not sinful. *sideeye* But I still can't help but feel like he's moving a huge, intransigent institution in the right direction here. He has a lot of power, and him saying stuff like this might be all the air cover some Catholics need to let go of the prejudice (or self-judgment) they might have been brought up with.

I have a complicated relationship with the Catholic Church myself, in that I grew up Catholic but left the church around the time I started college. Now I'm solidly atheist, and even though there's some anger mixed in for Reasons I'm sure many of you understand, there's no denying that for a long time it was a huge part of my life, and is still a huge part of the lives of many of my loved ones. I tend to feel like the reporters in Spotlight about the Church -- like, in the movie, they talked about not being religious anymore, but the tragic acts of the Church still hit them incredibly hard, because it still held importance to them.

So, anyway, I'm net glad that Pope Francis has said this.

BenPanced · Jul 3, 2016

Sorry not sorry. Not buying it. He keeps making these little tidbits that make you think he's all for compassion for teh ghey, but in his next speech he calls same-sex marriage

a total rejection of God's law and an effort by the father of lies to confuse and deceive humanity

and that it

threatens to disfigure God's plan

and he's against same-sex couples adopting because

every person needs a male father and a female mother.

Plus he endorsed Slovakia's referendum to strengthen a constitutional ban same-sex marriage by defining marriage as only between a man and a woman and not permitting same-sex couples to adopt (the referendum failed but the same-sex marriage ban remains in place).

I was Catholic for the first 13 years of my life and haven't looked back since I left the church, and I can't reconcile any of what he says in any way as supporting QUILTBAG people or their concerns. He's only spouting Church Policy™ to appease his followers, talking out of both sides of his mouth. Many people I know who were encouraged by his early "who am I to judge?" comments are growing disheartened as he continues to show his true colors. A lot of people see a progressive pontiff; I only see a pope who isn't even anywhere near close to making any real reforms, much less showing any support in any way.

AW Admin · Jul 3, 2016

The Catholic church can't really change in the way we'd like for a very long time. It's a matter of canon law, which is no longer written solely by the Pope. There's an entire process that has to go through and be voted upon.

So yeah, it's a nice sentiment, but that's about it. Which is not to say that I don't value the sentiment, but, it's a sentiment. Not a proclamation from the Vatican, and it has no effect on canon law.

AW Admin · Jul 3, 2016

slhuang said:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/26/world/pope-apologize-gays/

Item of note: The pope has still not come out and said so-called "homosexual acts" are not sinful.

He can't. All sex is sinful outside of the desire to procreate.

slhuang said:
So, anyway, I'm net glad that Pope Francis has said this.

Yeah, me too. But I'm also realistic. The Catholic church will not change it's primary stance wrt to same-sex sex or marriage in my lifetime.

DancingMaenid · Jul 3, 2016

Though I think it's a good thing overall that the Pope is compassionate, I think people can underestimate sometimes how ideologies like these can mess with people's heads. I went to a Catholic church that was very much of the "We love and accept gay people...we just don't believe in non-procreative sex" type, and I ended up developing some internalized homophobia that was hard to unlearn. I tried so hard to justify these teachings and tell myself that the church wasn't prejudiced against me.

Roxxsmom · Jul 3, 2016

The Pope's strategy will salve the consciences many of the more socially liberal Catholics without really changing church policies in a way that will drive the more conservative members away. Not to say that this pope isn't a nice man, or that he isn't motivated by love too, but religion really seems to be more and more like a business these days, so religious leaders are always making practical decisions about how to keep the largest number of "customers" attending and putting money in the collection plate (or however modern churches get funds).

Not being religious myself, I really can't say if change would come faster if people who support equality for all in their denominations vote with their feet and join (or form) more progressive religions, or if they stick around and agitate for change from within (or perhaps an eventual schism).

kuwisdelu · Jul 3, 2016

In other news, ChristianMingle is now being forced to allow gay matches on their dating site.

A sign of the end times, for sure.

Samsonet · Jul 3, 2016

I've been reading a lot of LGBT Christian bloggers recently. A lot of them believe that sex has a specific place and purpose and so are focusing on the non-sexual aspects of their orientations. A legit personal decision that will be respected by other members of their churches, right?

Not so much.

The "gay = having gay sex -> not having gay sex = not gay" thing frustrates me to no end. If one can't see a celibate LGBT person as a person without erasing part of their identity, how are they going to show love to sexually-active LGBT people?

I have So Many Opinions on this. I should probably get off the keyboard for a bit...

DancingMaenid · Jul 3, 2016

Part of the problem, too, is that straight couples have the privilege of being able to hide it if they're having non-procreative sex. I think the Catholic church is very "don't ask, don't tell" when it comes to heterosexual marital sex activities. I'm sure most people are aware that there are probably a lot of married Catholic couples who engage in oral sex or use birth control, but this isn't generally discussed in many places. With unmarried couples, there is an understanding that they may eventually marry and have children. Also, I've never witnessed the church discouraging infertile married straight couples from engaging in sexual intimacy.

A gay Catholic can't date or get married without making it obvious that they're not following the church's rules. Yes, there are relationships that don't involve sex, but it's generally rare for people to enter into romantic relationships with no intention of ever having sex, and gay couples aren't able to hide behind plausible deniability.

Even if, on the surface, the rules about sex apply to everyone, it's clear that non-celibate gay, lesbian, and bisexual people have a much harder time being a part of the Catholic faith than many straight people who choose to ignore those rules. My mom never felt like a bad Catholic for being on birth control, but her "sin" wasn't visible to others.

Latina Bunny · Jul 3, 2016

It's a nice sentiment (like Lisa said earlier).

I'm not Catholic, so I'm okay with it, though I know it probably won't change anything in the deeper culture.

Roxxsmom said:
Not being religious myself, I really can't say if change would come faster if people who support equality for all in their denominations vote with their feet and join (or form) more progressive religions, or if they stick around and agitate for change from within (or perhaps an eventual schism).

As someone who's liberal, LGBT, and a Casual Christian (TM), I'm planning to scope out and attend some more LGBT-friendly churches (like Unitarian, United Christ, etc), and see how that goes. I'm hoping to meet some cool new peeps and find a nice place to hang out in.

(I rarely went to church because I had experiences with very conservative churches who were homophobic and intolerant in the past. My family don't really go to church because we disliked the strict and intolerant cultures of the hardline Evangelical churches/communities we've been exposed to in the past. Obviously, this is all starting to change in some areas, little by little, for the better.)

I am glad my family are not Catholic (and are just Lazy, Liberal Christians, lol), because it seems Catholicism is much more strict than the other denominations. (I think?)

AW Admin · Jul 3, 2016

DancingMaenid said:
Part of the problem, too, is that straight couples have the privilege of being able to hide it if they're having non-procreative sex. I think the Catholic church is very "don't ask, don't tell" when it comes to heterosexual marital sex activities. .

Err. . . no, it's really not. There's a fair amount of difference from parish to parish, but a good Catholic must go to confession, and the Church is dead serious about confessing "impure thoughts" never mind infidelity, masturbation, etc. There are lists of sins, (really) and priests have confession manuals regarding the correct response (and proper penance). Seriously. Medieval confession manuals are a genre unto themselves for researcher, and they're not that different from modern Vatican instructions.

Here's the thing, though: if it is intended to lead to penis-in-vagina sex and the possibility of conception, pretty much anything is OK; sex is still not a good thing, but if it leads to the possibility of conception, it's not a major sin.

Samsonet · Jul 3, 2016

I am glad my family are not Catholic (and are just Lazy, Liberal Christians, lol), because it seems Catholicism is much more strict than the other denominations. (I think?)

From what I can tell, the Catholic church isn't more strict than other denominations in terms of pastoral care. That depends on which parish you're in.

Some people thrive better in different denominations. It's not a matter of how "good" a Christian a person is... I hope you never feel pressured to stay in a church where you're not growing.

(note: Not Catholic. I'm thinking of converting to Catholicism, but obviously for different reasons.)

edit: I may be misreading you on this... I hate doing that.

DancingMaenid · Jul 3, 2016

AW Admin said:
Err. . . no, it's really not. There's a fair amount of difference from parish to parish, but a good Catholic must go to confession, and the Church is dead serious about confessing "impure thoughts" never mind infidelity, masturbation, etc. There are lists of sins, (really) and priests have confession manuals regarding the correct response (and proper penance). Seriously. Medieval confession manuals are a genre unto themselves for researcher, and they're not that different from modern Vatican instructions.

Sure, but there's no way for anyone to know what a straight married couple is getting up to in the bedroom unless they choose to confess. Straight couples have significantly more freedom to decide to ignore the rules without anyone knowing. And I've never known a priest who went out of his way to interrogate anyone about their use of birth control or what specific sex acts they get up to, but nor do I think many are naive enough to seriously believe that that doesn't mean there are no hidden "sins" going on in secret.

Jslaterwriter · Jul 3, 2016

AW Admin said:
The Catholic church can't really change in the way we'd like for a very long time. It's a matter of canon law, which is no longer written solely by the Pope. There's an entire process that has to go through and be voted upon.

So yeah, it's a nice sentiment, but that's about it. Which is not to say that I don't value the sentiment, but, it's a sentiment. Not a proclamation from the Vatican, and it has no effect on canon law.

I know nothing about the Catholic Church or its machinations, and this is in no way making fun of you, but I think it's hilarious that they're beholden to some strict legislative process. They're the ones making the rules! It's not like gravity or the coulomb forces are preventing them from doing what's right. It's the same as me drawing a chalk circle around my wife and I and saying, "No one can leave this circle unless we have 3 votes." And then blaming our starvation on bureaucracy. It's just so absurd.

slhuang · Jul 3, 2016

Though Catholicism does, theoretically, have a unified proscribed doctrine, it's worth noting that Catholic churches, Catholic priests, Catholic congregations, and individual Catholics vary widely. My Catholic churches growing up were all fairly liberal. My first childhood church, in fact, the pastor allowed girls to be altar servers even though that was specifically against Vatican law at the time. And this wasn't a small rural church or anything -- this was a huge and fairly well-known church with a very large congregation (large enough to support... 3 fully-time clergy, if I remember right?). And we had girls altar serving. I have no idea if he caught flack for that from the higher ups.

I was too young at the time ever to ask what Father J. thought of queer people. Maybe he toed party line on that, but I also wouldn't have been surprised if the answer was way more liberal than the Vatican would have preferred.

The church we were part of after moving was also fairly progressive. Though perhaps not as "black sheep" officially as my first one, many in the congregation were pretty liberal folk. And as for confession, there was never any pressure (official or social) to go regularly (or at all). We had "first confession" in, um, fourth grade I think, and that was a big ceremonial thing, and after that it was understood that you could go any time after -- and if someone were to go regularly I think it would have been seen as, sure, a positive thing -- but I don't know of anybody in the congregation who did. I think I went... maybe 3 times the entire time I was Catholic? Including first confession? And I considered myself a very dedicated Catholic for a long span of years. (I often felt the onus of praying more -- being closer to God, as it were -- but never to go to confession.) There weren't even official confession times or anything; you had to actively make an appointment with our pastor if you wanted to do it.

This is not to say that the liberalism I experienced was actually "correct" Catholicism according to Catholic law. Pretty sure it wasn't. What I mean to say is, even though there is generally a single recognized "right answer" to many various things in Catholicism, you'll find plenty of people who identify as Catholic who vary from that, even priests.

This is also not to say that I didn't end up having MAJOR disagreements with the Church. Proudly ex-Catholic now, remember, and have worked through a good amount of anger in the process.

Just trying to offer some perspective.

On the flip side, I had a large amount of trouble in middle/high school with "evangelical" Christian classmates -- not Catholic -- who were wayyyy more strict and judgmental than I was ever taught. On the flip flip side, I don't think any Catholic church would ever vary enough to be as liberal as, say, a Unitarian or Episcopalian one could be, but you'll still find a fair amount of variation.

tl;dr: People vary. Catholics vary.

Jslaterwriter · Jul 4, 2016

Oh, I know all about evangelicals. I grew up in Appalachia where I went to tent revivals, saw snake handlers, and spent years watching people flop around like fish with Tourettes whenever they were "moved by the spirit." I've been an atheist since I was nine, and obnoxious since I was born, so I know how terrible they can be the other.

Taylor Harbin · Jul 4, 2016

I will try to offer another perspective, if I may.

Conservative Christians like myself struggle with this stuff all the time. We want to follow God's law as closely as we can, but we also want to live down the popular image that we're all a bunch of hypocritical, backbiting scum. It is very difficult to find the perfect balance of Jesus, to emulate the one who loved sinners but refused to condone or accept what was sinful.

I have heard many of these arguments before. "Oh you people just need to get with the times and give up already. You're homophobic and sexist. You won't even let your women preach."

Well...I believe in a God that doesn't change. But just because women don't get named as servants in the public ceremonies, that doesn't mean they don't have a very important role to fulfill. Sexist? Read Ephesians 5. "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church" (which implies that he ought to be ready to die for his wife, as well as love her as Jesus loved the poor, sick, and sinful).

Homophobic? I've never had an irrational fear of homosexuals (and the misuse of that word drives me nuts), but I know what verse gets thrown out: Matthew 7:1-3, although a clear reading of this admonishes people to use the correct standard of judgement before doing so (and the correct standard, according to the Bible, is God).

All of that aside, it pains me to read about so many people who were driven away from the faith at an early age (or any age for that matter) because of someone's Phariseeism. I can only hope that someone else will come into your life and show you we're not all like that, zealous to a fault.

The fight over gay marriage in America is done. We lost. There's a few pockets of resistance, but they'll be fined/sued/jailed into submission, most likely. These comments about "agitating from within" are disturbing. Is that live and let live?

A lot of us are trying to live peaceably in this new social order. As one who is only now being exposed to people with such radically different views, it's a steep learning curve. But we aren't going to start cherry-picking verses and pretending to be ok with things that the Bible has condemned for thousands of years. And yes, I know many of you might be thinking "Well, if you weren't religious, this wouldn't be an issue." That's a talk for later.

Hope that makes sense. Just felt the need to say something...

Roxxsmom · Jul 4, 2016

But you get to choose your religion, in the modern US, at least. If it advocates things that hurt people and deprive them of rights, equality and human dignity, how can it be correct in assessing what God really wants? Assuming that God is good and benevolent and worth the worship of human souls, of course.

As for different rules for men and women: I don't want my husband to die for me, nor to lead me/care for me as if I were a beloved child. I want him to be my partner, to have my back, yes, but in the same way I have his. I don't want anyone telling me what I can and can't do with my life as a woman. Not that long ago, that kind of logic was used to deny my half of the human race the educations, the right to own property, and to vote. Many people who opposed suffrage for women did so on religious/scriptural grounds and insisted that men and women had different roles and that men should lovingly decide these things for their wives and daughters. Same thing for slavery and other forms of racial oppression.

I daresay some loved their slaves and took their responsibility towards them seriously, as per Collosians 4:1. That doesn't make slavery right.

I'm guessing that few Christians today, conservative or otherwise, think we should return to human bondage or take the vote away from women. Interpretations of the Bible do change, even by conservative denominations.

I'm not trying to be contrary, but this is something that has always puzzled me about religion, conservative or otherwise. How can anyone know anything is really correct and true, whether they be translated scriptures handed down through history, or a religious revelation someone has had more recently, or a position one arrives at via logic if it's not actually tested in some way.

I don't think schisms in religions are bad things, nor are movements from within to change them and make them more inclusive. This kind of thing has been happening throughout history and is responsible for the existence of all modern religions. Many of today's conservative sects started as rebellious groups of heretics who had interpretations of scriptures that were considered incorrect by established denominations.

kuwisdelu · Jul 4, 2016

Taylor Harbin said:
These comments about "agitating from within" are disturbing. Is that live and let live?

Why is it disturbing?

LGBTQ Catholics (and other Christians) have every right to try to effect change from within their own religion. Why shouldn't they?

It is their religion, too, y'know.

kuwisdelu · Jul 4, 2016

Also? The sexist argument really doesn't come off as saying what you think it does.

Taylor Harbin said:
Sexist? Read Ephesians 5. "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church" (which implies that he ought to be ready to die for his wife, as well as love her as Jesus loved the poor, sick, and sinful).

Yeah. Loving women means one can't be sexist.

:sarcasm

Homophobic? I've never had an irrational fear of homosexuals (and the misuse of that word drives me nuts)

It's not a misuse. That's not its only meaning.

Samsonet · Jul 4, 2016

I think there are more LGBT Christians faithfully following their denomination's teachings* who are accused of agitating from within than there are LGBT Christians who are actively trying to cause trouble.

*plus members who don't agree with all the teachings but aren't trying to cause trouble either, now that I think about it.

mccardey · Jul 4, 2016

Taylor Harbin said:
Conservative Christians like myself struggle

You understand that whatever Conservative Christian Church you're a part of has had members - often born into that Church - who were gay? I'm guessing they know what struggling really is.

AW Admin · Jul 4, 2016

Taylor Harbin said:
But we aren't going to start cherry-picking verses and pretending to be ok with things that the Bible has condemned for thousands of years. And yes, I know many of you might be thinking "Well, if you weren't religious, this wouldn't be an issue." That's a talk for later.

Hope that makes sense. Just felt the need to say something...

You didn't read the stickies, did you. Which basically is a metaphor for an inability to parse text.

If you had posted that in almost any other part of AW I'd let it pass, but not here. You don't get to preach here, and you especially don't get to preach when you don't even know what your scripture really says.

Because you are cherry picking, and you're cherry picking texts that you don't even how know how to read.

And you're not welcome in QUILTBAG, because you can't even be bothered to read the stickies.

Loverofwords · Jul 4, 2016

Yeah, Catholicism is just an odd religion to me, even though I am Catholic and have gone to Catholic school my whole life and am currently at a Catholic high school (my choice, not forced). I don't agree with some of what it teaches (like LGBT issues and the like), but I still believe in God and all that.

From what I've learned in theology class, we should love everyone and treat them as a neighbor. They say being gay isn't the sin, but committing the sexual act is a sin because they're not married and they can't get married (in the eyes of the Church, unfortunately) because they don't have penis-vagina sex. It's not just them, either. Say a man got his penis blown up in war or something and wanted to marry a woman. To the Church, he would not be able to get married because he can't consummate it by having sex. Totally whack. Because to the Church, marriage isn't a peace of paper but a sacrament that comes down from God and binds the two people together forever. So the Church probably won't change their viewpoint ever, which is very sad.

But not every Catholic thinks that way, of course. There's a deacon at my school who once told us a story about how his two best friends are gay and they had a wedding and stuff. Super cool. And most Catholics I know are accepting, so that's good.

I agree with you, Roxx. How can we know for sure what's really right? And what kind of God would make up these dumb rules?

kuwisdelu · Jul 4, 2016

AW Admin said:
Because you are cherry picking, and you're cherry picking texts that you don't even how know how to read.

I was trying to put something together to point out the irony that you kind of need to

Taylor Harbin said:
start cherry-picking verses

to get to the interpretation that we're

things that the Bible has condemned for thousands of years

but alas, my edit finger was too slow.

Pope says Christians should apologize to gay people

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