preference questions on "comma then" construction

tko · Jun 22, 2016

A semi-famous author offers his opinion on the ", then" sentence construction. What do you think of his examples?

He dims the lamp and opens the window, then pulls the body inside.

vs

He dims the lamp, opens the window, pulls the body inside.

or

He dims the lamp and opens the window. Then he pulls the body inside.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I walked to the door and opened it, then turned back to her.

vs

When I got to the door, I turned back to her.

or

I went to the door and opened it. Then I turned back to her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.fsgworkinprogress.com/2012/04/jonathan-franzen-comma-then/

I disagree with the above examples (he dislikes the first sentence, then rewrites it twice, and states he wouldn't read a book with any of the original constructions), but do agree with his first example shown below:

She lit a Camel Light, then dragged deeply.

vs

She lit a Camel Light and took a deep drag.

But I only agree because I don't think "dragged" is really a word and doesn't look right, but nothing to do with commas.

He seems to want a noun after the comma-then construction. So this is wrong:

I walked to the door and opened it, then turned back to her.

But this would be right ????

I walked to the door and opened it, then I turned back to her.

I'd say the second "I" is implied, so you can leave it out. But I'm not (semi) famous.

Duncan J Macdonald · Jun 27, 2016

Speaking as a reader, I have no issues with the first sentence examples. As for the third, and speaking as an ex-smoker, 'took a deep drag' was always the proper way to express it.

ArtsyAmy · Jun 27, 2016

Unlike the author you wrote about, I'd keep reading with the original constructions. The different constructions result in subtle differences in meaning. I'm with you on "dragged."

FWIW: I remember checking several years ago about whether "comma, then" is grammatical, and reading that "and" is needed before "then." E.g., I turned on my computer, and then I went to the Absolute Write forums. But I skip the "and" these days in my writing, figuring the "and" is understood. A few years ago I realized my writing sounded too uptight, and I needed to loosen up a bit. Now if I think an incomplete sentence makes my point best, that's what I use. Just like many, many published writers do. I don't know why I was so persnickety for so long. As I tell my kids: If you're writing something for an English professor, do it this way; if you're not writing for an English professor, consider not doing it this way.

WWWalt · Jun 28, 2016

tko said:
http://www.fsgworkinprogress.com/2012/04/jonathan-franzen-comma-then/

The best part of this page is that Franzen's blithe assertion "Dickens and the Brontës got along fine without comma-then" is disproved by a commenter after a few minutes of searching on a site where their works are available. I suppose if you have a good rant to make, why let trivial things like facts get in the way?

MaggieMc · Jun 28, 2016

I would say Jonathan Franzen is pretty damn famous ...rather than semi-famous ...but maybe my sense of humour is a bit slow tonight? : )

Think he comes across as a bit of a knob on this one though. For me using 'then' or 'and then' depends on the sentence.

Curlz · Jun 28, 2016

tko said:
A semi-famous author offers his opinion on the ", then" sentence construction. What do you think of his examples?

First, that "semi-famous" author is a well-recognised name in the publishing business and very much trusted to be one of high quality output. Second, grammar is not a matter of opinion. There are rules about "comma before then" and that's that :tongue

But sometimes, it's allowed to help the reader a little further with going through your prose. That's when surprise comma comes up and lends a hand. A comma provides a convenient pause for effect. Only that's not really a "rule", so if you want to use the odd not-sanctioned-by-grammar type of comma, it's advisable to think twice about it and be really certain that it is, indeed, needed. Authors are allowed to do odd things for dramatic effect, but if they overdramatise their writing, it's very easy to look silly rather than dramatic. So there's that too. :snoopy:

tko · Jun 28, 2016

But . . .

Curlz said:
First, that "semi-famous" author is a well-recognised name in the publishing business and very much trusted to be one of high quality output

Einstein is known by everyone. Hilbert, more by other mathematicians. But yes, I guess getting your face on the cover of Time Magazine qualifies for famous.

Second, grammar is not a matter of opinion. There are rules about "comma before then" and that's that

Okay, but I haven't been able to find his "rule" unless you assume "then" is a normal conjunction.

Do not use the word then as a conjunction without a subject following it.

But sometimes, it's allowed to help the reader a little further with going through your prose. That's when surprise comma comes up and lends a hand. A comma provides a convenient pause for effect.

But his "solution" isn't to remove the comma.

I walked to the door and opened it, then turned back to her. < his example that violate his rule

I walked to the door and opened it then turned back to her. < is it better without the comma?

Only that's not really a "rule", so if you want to use the odd not-sanctioned-by-grammar type of comma

But what is the real rule here? Since "then" is only grudgingly admitted to be a conjunction, there are very few guidelines on it's use. Do the normal conjunction rules about joining dependent or independent clauses apply?
All internet searches come back to our famous Jonathon.

I think it all gets back to the "do you use and with them question" which has been beaten to death here and other places.

WWWalt · Jun 30, 2016

Curlz said:
grammar is not a matter of opinion. There are rules about "comma before then" and that's that

Grammar only has conventions, not rules. No one will arrest you if you put a comma in the wrong place. (Well, probably someone will arrest you if you put a giant comma on Abe Lincoln's nose on Mount Rushmore...)

While most grammatical conventions are clear-cut, not all are. There are several grammar and style guides that are widely respected and considered authoritative. Not all of them agree on every detail. So "there are rules and that's that" is perhaps oversimplifying the matter a bit.

preference questions on "comma then" construction

tko

just thanks fore everything

Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

ArtsyAmy

WWWalt

MaggieMc

Curlz

cutsie-pie

tko

just thanks fore everything

WWWalt