After Orlando: What Comes Next?

robeiae · Jun 15, 2016

Chrissy said:
I am definitely of the opinion that "where we go from here" should include gun regulation. And it's not even because of this event, really. This mass murder, along with all the others, only highlights the issue I see even in myself even as a non-gun owning person, which is a gun "mentality." I think we'd be a better nation with less of that. Getting there is tricky because of the inevitable pushback, but we should try. Education could be an effective means, perhaps.

As I've noted previously, I don't object to better regulations, better background checks at all. And I think concealed and open carry permits should be done away with completely.

But I remain of the opinion that this event, while incredibly tragic, is not a consequence of easy access to guns, of a lack of an assault weapon ban, anymore than was Paris, San Bernardino, or--obviously--the Boston Marathon bombings (and for point of info, two people were stabbed to death in Paris just the other day by an ISIS supporter).

While I'm not right as matter of course, I'm also not wrong as a matter of course. It a debatable point. We've had a lot of tragic incidents that I think most definitely can be tied to easy access to guns, so I understand why people are up in arms (pardon the pun) here. But the need for doing something in this regard shouldn't obscure the issue that Orlando really highlights (imo, obviously): a growth of violent extremism within the US and other nations inspired by ISIS and other terror groups.

I admit I don't have a solution for this, but I feel it's a serious problem and I wish it was front and center here (as opposed to "guns"), because I think it's going to continue.

Cramp · Jun 15, 2016

Are Dylann Roof and Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech, the attack at Planned Parenthood, Newton... are they also part of this growth of violent extremism within the US?

How can it be a growth when these things are continuously happening?

EDIT: To be more clear. I do not think you have made a convincing argument that this case has a more in common to the Paris attacks than the "lone wolf" mass shootings America is familiar with.

In terms of the alienation Muslims are feeling in the Western countries they live in I think that will require enormous work because it is not only the alienation that a lot of people are feeling in a time when the economic ideology is no longer fulfilling it's promise, but also the spectres of xenophobia and the disastrous adventurism in the Middle East and elsewhere (the resurgent nationalism being fuelled on the other side of the rope by the aforementioned economic alienation and inflamed by reactionary political figures hoping to make hay of the unsettled population).

robeiae · Jun 15, 2016

Cramp said:
Are Dylann Roof and Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech, the attack at Planned Parenthood, Newton... are they also part of this growth of violent extremism within the US?

Obviously not.

How can it be a growth when these things are continuously happening?

Huh? Terrorist attacks by ISIS supporters or the like have been "continuously happening"?

EDIT: To be more clear. I do not think you have made a convincing argument that this case has a more in common to the Paris attacks than the "lone wolf" mass shootings America is familiar with.

Well, I think it has more in common with Boston and San Bernardino, actually. Paris was obviously a more extensive event. But my fear is that such attacks are on the horizon here, as well.

In terms of the alienation Muslims are feeling in the Western countries they live in I think that will require enormous work because it is not only the alienation that a lot of people are feeling in a time when the economic ideology is no longer fulfilling it's promise, but also the spectres of xenophobia and the disastrous adventurism in the Middle East and elsewhere (the resurgent nationalism being fuelled on the other side of the rope by the aforementioned economic alienation and inflamed by reactionary political figures hoping to make hay of the unsettled population).

I think all of this is worth exploring, too. People like Trump are most definitely a part of the problem, not the solution, imo.

CassandraW · Jun 15, 2016

"continuously" happening?

This was a horrifying tragedy. Yes, I'd like to see more gun laws. Yes, there has been some violence in the U.S. that such laws might have curbed -- though not, IMO, this incident, any more than gun laws stopped the killers in Norway and France. This fuckhead would have procured a gun or a bomb or whatever it took.

Quite frankly, the picture some of you seem to have of life in America -- i.e., all of us hunkered down with arsenals taking potshots at one another and trembling in fear -- is ridiculous, and to me at least (I can't speak for other Americans), somewhat insulting.

I live in a city with twice Norway's population. I do not walk around in fear. I've never seen anyone assaulted or threatened with a gun. The only violent deaths I've personally witnessed were carried out via box cutters on September 11, 2001.

Guns are a problem, yes. But hello, there are other issues, big ones, that resulted in this tragedy. Hate, extremism, bigotry.

It makes me sad that I've put up two posts with touching profiles of the Orlando victims, and only one person has acknowledged them (in a rep).

I understand why this killing brings up the subject of gun laws. I don't understand why it has become pretty much the entire discussion in this forum.

(I really need to stay away. I may need to go offline for a couple of days to do it. This is genuinely upsetting me.)

Chrissy · Jun 15, 2016

robeiae said:
As I've noted previously, I don't object to better regulations, better background checks at all. And I think concealed and open carry permits should be done away with completely.

But I remain of the opinion that this event, while incredibly tragic, is not a consequence of easy access to guns, of a lack of an assault weapon ban, anymore than was Paris, San Bernardino, or--obviously--the Boston Marathon bombings (and for point of info, two people were stabbed to death in Paris just the other day by an ISIS supporter).

I don't think it's a "consequence" of easy access to guns, either. I think easy access to guns makes it easier. I agree with Cass that it's due to hate, bigotry, and maybe somewhat in this case religious extremism. But it was certainly not some coordinated attack, like 9/11 or or France. It was one hateful, bigoted, confused, angry, fucked up person who apparently really really really liked ISIS.

While I'm not right as matter of course, I'm also not wrong as a matter of course. It a debatable point. We've had a lot of tragic incidents that I think most definitely can be tied to easy access to guns, so I understand why people are up in arms (pardon the pun) here. But the need for doing something in this regard shouldn't obscure the issue that Orlando really highlights (imo, obviously): a growth of violent extremism within the US and other nations inspired by ISIS and other terror groups.

I admit I don't have a solution for this, but I feel it's a serious problem and I wish it was front and center here (as opposed to "guns"), because I think it's going to continue.

I don't see growth so much as I see fear of growth, in the U.S. And that fear *is* a serious problem, because fear makes people stupid sometimes.

I need more evidence that violent extremism is "growing" in the US. And, provided it can be shown, some sort of workable solution would be nice. You said you don't have one. If no one else has one either, we could, I don't know, maybe have some more gun regulations in the meantime to make it less easy for anyone to commit mass murder.

Cramp · Jun 15, 2016

The trouble, as I see it, with this idea of being an "ISIS supporter" is that it doesn't take anything more than simply proclaiming it. I've seen reports that the guy also mentioned Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, groups that are somewhat mutually exclusive. Did he send them material aid? Was he part of some kind of terror network or a cell?

I don't think this particular attack, or what I know of the Boston bombings or the San Bernardino attacks, are indicative of terrorist cells on American soil. I think they are indicative of, as I mentioned in my previous post, a growing alienation and vulnerability to the ideology (and this vulnerability it affecting different cultural groups in different ways - and, to be even more of a armchair sociologist, is the appeal maybe of the violent absolutism of the appealing ideologies. A simple purity where complexity is pollution). The danger in America, as opposed to countries with different laws, is that the potential for someone who has been radicalised to legally collect a devastating armament is orders of magnitude easier. It does not require huge amounts of planning or law-breaking, or organisation with a criminal network. How can you defend against that?

robeiae · Jun 15, 2016

Chrissy said:
I need more evidence that violent extremism is "growing" in the US. And, provided it can be shown, some sort of workable solution would be nice. You said you don't have one. If no one else has one either, we could, I don't know, maybe have some more gun regulations in the meantime to make it less easy for anyone to commit mass murder.

We could always have more gun regulations. That's the point. That angle is available and legitimate. It was so before Orlando.

As to the growth of violent Islamic extremism within the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad...ited_States#Attacks_or_failed_attacks_by_date

And to be clear and fair here, there is also what most like to term "right wing extremism" in the US. The case can be made that this is growing, as well. As is the case with some of these ISIS-related attacks, I would argue that increased gun regulations won't stop some of these folks, either. They'll get what they need, in this regard, whether it's guns or bombs.

And all of these mass killings pale in comparison to the numbers of people killed with guns in large US cities. If preserving as many lives as possible is the goal, the place to start is with handguns, weapons that can be easily concealed and used with relative impunity. Imo.

Vince524 · Jun 15, 2016

CassandraW said:
"continuously" happening?

This was a horrifying tragedy. Yes, I'd like to see more gun laws. Yes, there has been some violence in the U.S. that such laws might have curbed -- though not, IMO, this incident, any more than gun laws stopped the killers in Norway and France. This fuckhead would have procured a gun or a bomb or whatever it took.

Quite frankly, the picture some of you seem to have of life in America -- i.e., all of us hunkered down with arsenals taking potshots at one another and trembling in fear -- is ridiculous, and to me at least (I can't speak for other Americans), somewhat insulting.

I live in a city with twice Norway's population. I do not walk around in fear. I've never seen anyone assaulted or threatened with a gun. The only violent deaths I've personally witnessed were carried out via box cutters on September 11, 2001.

Guns are a problem, yes. But hello, there are other issues, big ones, that resulted in this tragedy. Hate, extremism, bigotry.

It makes me sad that I've put up two posts with touching profiles of the Orlando victims, and only one person has acknowledged them (in a rep).

I understand why this killing brings up the subject of gun laws. I don't understand why it has become pretty much the entire discussion in this forum.

(I really need to stay away. I may need to go offline for a couple of days to do it. This is genuinely upsetting me.)

I do appreciate the posts you've put up and you're correct, we should be talking more about the victims, not advancing political agendas which would have changed the outcome here as much as Trumps proposal to ban Muslims.

However, of interest, is the fact that as you said, people see us as cowering under our beds, which isn't the case.

Maybe if the rhetoric was toned down and not attached to cases like this, the opposition wouldn't dig their heels in as much.

nighttimer · Jun 15, 2016

whistlelock said:
What happens after Orlando? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. As long as the NRA has the government in its pocket, absolutely nothing will change.

No. I can't accept that. I won't accept that. To consider the NRA an irresistible force AND an immovable object that can buy all the politicians they want to do whatever they're told to do requires sinking into a well of futility and fatalism too deep to ever come up from.

I'm a grown man and I don't cry at weddings, funerals, or births. I don't give it up easy. Doing 70mph on the freeway and I'm sniveling and squeezing out tears like a little kid over the heart-rending death of Akyra Monet Murray, who at 18, was the youngest one to die at The Pulse nightclub.

Throwing up my hands to say "nothing can be done" will only ensure nothing will be done and I just. can't. accept. that. Not anymore. Maybe if I had done something sooner instead of sitting on my ass doing nothing, Akyra would still be alive and ready to go and take on the world as a college student with a free ride scholarship.

Instead, she bled out on the restroom floor from a gunshot to the arm that severed an artery. For nearly four hours Akrya laid there along with her wounded cousin and friend, too frightened to move so there they laid playing dead among the dead with as Akyra's cousin described, "somebody's brain fragments in my fingernails, blood clots and stuff all over the place."

Being a writer I'm blessed with a vivid imagination. Imagining what it was like to lie there knowing at any moment the killer could come back to finish the job and what Akrya, Tiara and Patience saw, heard, smelled and felt makes that blessing feel more like a curse.

To do nothing and say nothing can be done doesn't make me complicit in the death of Akrya Monet Murray and the 48 others. It makes me a weak and pathetic coward and I don't much like how that makes me feel. I cannot wait until the bullets fly from an assault weapon in the hands of someone who should never had been allowed to get their bloody hands on one in the first place. I cannot wait until the next time and it is somebody I know and maybe love profiled among the roll call of the dead.

I have to believe something can be done. What, I do not know, but I must have the courage to find out what. I cannot do any less and call myself a man.

Something can be done. Something must be done. But only ff those who want it want it bad enough.

rugcat · Jun 15, 2016

CassandraW said:
I live in a city with twice Norway's population. I do not walk around in fear. I've never seen anyone assaulted or threatened with a gun. The only violent deaths I've personally witnessed were carried out via box cutters on September 11, 2001.

And yet, in certain cities or areas of cities, gun violence is so common as to be part of every day life. If you are a young black person on the south side of Chicago, fear is a totally rational response to the daily gun violence

In some high schools in Oakland, California it would be hard to find a single student who does not personally know someone who has been wounded or killed by someone with a gun.

Just today in Oakland, in minor back page news, another 16-year-old girl was killed when a shooting broke out at a memorial for two young men who drowned in a boating accident.

Vince524 said:
Maybe if the rhetoric was toned down and not attached to cases like this, the opposition wouldn't dig their heels in as much.

Perhaps so. But it is very difficult to keep an even tone when the most powerful group opposing all gun regulations is run by a far right wing conspiracy theorist. A group so powerful that their efforts have succeeded in making it illegal for the government to even fund research on gun violence.

AW Admin · Jun 15, 2016

Please try to avoid detailed gun control arguments. There's a thread for that.

Gilroy Cullen · Jun 15, 2016

Where do we go from here? I'm going to offer my thoughts. None of these will have support outside of my own observations.

Step one: We work to end divisions among the people. We acknowledge differences. We take personal responsibility for our own faults and don't judge others for theirs. We create a society that works together as a unit, rather than a severely divided set of individuals. And we don't let the ruling class divide us, because it makes us easier to dupe. We also make sure that it doesn't take a natural disaster or tragedy to bring people together to help.

Step two: We understand compromise is necessary to get things done. We don't let any one group so polarize our approach to something that all angles can't be examined.

Step three: We find ways to humanely deal with things like mental health issues and anti social behavior that doesn't result in the prison like institutions of old.

Aside: We acknowledge that there are two different types of mass rampage attacks, though people want to lump them into one. Charleston, Orlando, and San Bernadino are one type, with criminal and terrorist activities very much at the forefront. Aurora and Newtowne are the other type, where mental health and severe instability create a hostile environment.

(As I said in the beginning, these are just my thoughts, YMWV.)

BenPanced · Jun 15, 2016

LIVE: Senate Democrats take control of floor to force gun control debate

AW Admin · Jun 15, 2016

You want to talk about guns do it here. I'm not saying that again.

You want to snipe at each other, take it to PM.

Chrissy · Jun 15, 2016

robeiae said:
We could always have more gun regulations. That's the point. That angle is available and legitimate. It was so before Orlando.

That's true, but sometimes it takes an event like this to get people thinking about it (again).... and sometimes they (and me) think about it for a while, and then nothing happens, life goes on, other things to think about... and then another mass murder happens, so it comes up again.... goddamnit, I should NOT have had to type that. This is obvious.

The one objection I have is that you say the angle is "available," but I'm not sure it is (perhaps I'll try to express more in the YAGC thread).

The point of my post is to address the following, which, I've been thinking about on and off all day:

robeiae said:
As to the growth of violent Islamic extremism within the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad...ited_States#Attacks_or_failed_attacks_by_date

The link really wasn't convincing to me. In terms of numbers of attempts, 2009 was more prolific than 2015. So, while this shit is definitely happening, it's not a clear pattern of growth from 2001 until now, that I can see. It seems pretty random. And again, I would not put the Orlando murderer into this category (nor, possibly, some of the other incidences in that link, if I knew more about them). This murderer is too complicated. Like Cramp said, he professed ISIS something-something and we're all like, OH, ISIS...? Why? I mean, I get taking people at their word, and I suppose it is possible he was motivated by ISIS hate speech, and it's also possible he was motivated by other things but fancied that ISIS would approve. Point being, he was not part of a terrorist cell or organization or anything like that, as far as I can tell, which is where a "growing" threat would carry some weight for me.

robeiae said:
And to be clear and fair here, there is also what most like to term "right wing extremism" in the US. The case can be made that this is growing, as well. As is the case with some of these ISIS-related attacks, I would argue that increased gun regulations won't stop some of these folks, either. They'll get what they need, in this regard, whether it's guns or bombs.

As I said before, in the absence of some way to address all sorts of extremism, we can make it more difficult to carry out extremist acts.

Look, I'm all about the "why" of everything, sometimes to a fault. But in this case (and as per the thread title), I think "What Comes Next," may be more crucial than "Why Did This Happen," if no one has any better solutions.

nighttimer · Jun 15, 2016

Vince524 said:
Maybe if the rhetoric was toned down and not attached to cases like this, the opposition wouldn't dig their heels in as much.

What rhetoric did you have in mind, Vince? What exactly is it which needs to be "toned down" and not "attached to cases like this?"

I'd like to know who this opposition is and why they're so dug in.

After Orlando: What Comes Next?

How Can the Next Terror Attack Be Prevented?

New Gun Control Legislation

Declare War on ISIS and Radical Islam

A Temporary Ban On Muslim Immigration

More Open Carry and Concealed Carry Laws

Ban Anyone On "No-Fly" List from Purchasing Assault Weapons

Terror Is the New Normal. Accept It.

Other (Please Specify)

robeiae

Touch and go

Cramp

Pain in the writing wrist

robeiae

Touch and go

CassandraW

Chrissy

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

Cramp

Pain in the writing wrist

robeiae

Touch and go

Vince524

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

AW Admin

Gilroy Cullen

Handsome servant of a redhead

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

AW Admin

Chrissy

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters