Brexit

I had a friend who knows me very well explain the Remain vote to me in exactly these words:

"The EU brings us as a species one little step closer to the United Federation of Planets."

If I wasn't already committed to Remain as a liberal with internationalist leanings who fundamentally believe that we're better when joined together than we are when sulkily splitting off from our nearest allies because they didn't give us everything we wanted* then that might have helped me along because I am nothing if not a tragic idiot.

* It's actually weird how much I run into the Brexit attitude of demanding the EU work for Britain exclusively while seemingly ignoring the 27 other countries that it also has to work for. They complain about it being un-democratic but when want to apparently in their ideal EU just have total say over everything that the EU does despite it having to do a lot of stuff for a lot of other people who have exactly as much right to it as we do.

Thanks for this thread, Alessandra - I was hoping it would come up.

I'd vote to remain, if I had a vote, pretty much for the reason Old Hack gave. And yes, the campaign to leave has been pretty sad. But there's a lot of that going around at the moment.

Reservoir Angel said:

I had a friend who knows me very well explain the Remain vote to me in exactly these words:

"The EU brings us as a species one little step closer to the United Federation of Planets."

If I wasn't already committed to Remain as a liberal with internationalist leanings who fundamentally believe that we're better when joined together than we are when sulkily splitting off from our nearest allies because they didn't give us everything we wanted* then that might have helped me along because I am nothing if not a tragic idiot.

* It's actually weird how much I run into the Brexit attitude of demanding the EU work for Britain exclusively while seemingly ignoring the 27 other countries that it also has to work for. They complain about it being un-democratic but when want to apparently in their ideal EU just have total say over everything that the EU does despite it having to do a lot of stuff for a lot of other people who have exactly as much right to it as we do.

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And this is why I have reservations on the principle of universal suffrage. The EU ain't the European Hegemony and its not the first step toward world government. Yeah. I'm a Trekkie.

The EU isn't democratic and one size doesn't fit all. I'm still undecided but whats good for France isn't what's good for Ireland or Poland or Spain or Estonia.

I'm more bothered that I have to spend three times longer hoovering the same spot of carpet because someone unelected dictated the strength of my vacuums motor. What's that helping?

If England left, they wouldn't have to suffer yet another last minute collapse in the Euros?

WriterDude said:

I'm more bothered that I have to spend three times longer hoovering the same spot of carpet because someone unelected dictated the strength of my vacuums motor. What's that helping?

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I've long since given up trying to change anyone's mind on the referendum question (being a Remain-voting liberal in a place swamped in Brexit-loving conservatives tends to make me hesitant to bother in the same way I'm largely hesitant about headbutting a series of walls) but this sentence necessitated a reply.

Because I have to say this is the most singularly British complaint about the European Union I have ever encountered, and I love you for it.

WriterDude said:

I'm more bothered that I have to spend three times longer hoovering the same spot of carpet because someone unelected dictated the strength of my vacuums motor. What's that helping?

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You aren't counting the added time waiting for the lights to get bright enough to see the spot.

WriterDude said:

I'm more bothered that I have to spend three times longer hoovering the same spot of carpet because someone unelected dictated the strength of my vacuums motor. What's that helping?

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It's all in the name of equality. Because British houses ("brouses") are so tiny, in order to ensure an equitable time out of each European's day is spent vacuuming the brouse, British vacuum cleaners ("braccuum cleaners") must be less powerful than their continental counterparts.

Reservoir Angel said:

I had a friend who knows me very well explain the Remain vote to me in exactly these words:

"The EU brings us as a species one little step closer to the United Federation of Planets."

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Funny, I almost made that analogy earlier, because that is kind of what I see as the idealistic intention of the EU.

I just don't see how it comes within a light year of the reality, or feasibility.

It's pretty clear to me that, while there may be some travel and trade advantages, there are an awful lot of burdens, economic obligations, and loss of sovereignty that comes with joining the EU too, and I don't see the pragmatic advantage for Britain. What I see is the desire for a peaceful, prosperous pan-European federation which... really isn't even on the horizon.

Not being in the EU wouldn't mean Britain is going it alone - there are still trade pacts and treaties with other countries.

(And yeah, I realize I'm a non-European commenting on European politics, but hey, that never stops y'all from Eurosplainin' to us Americans...)

WriterDude said:

I'm more bothered that I have to spend three times longer hoovering the same spot of carpet because someone unelected dictated the strength of my vacuums motor. What's that helping?

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We DO elect our MEPs (Member of the European Parliament, for the non-European people reading this) and they do represent us.

The vacuum cleaner issue is a red herring too. Yes, models with motors above 1600w were banned by the EU in 2014; but very few cleaners were affected, and the wattage has little bearing on how effective a cleaner is, as other areas of the machine's design can make even the most powerful machines ineffective, or the less powerful ones perform better. Manufacturers were increasing the power of their machines rather than improving the design of them, as it was an easier route to "better", but it didn't necessarily make their machines more effective.

It was covered in the UK press as an attack on our freedoms, but the reasoning behind it was to reduce our unnecessary power consumption, to protect and improve our environment, AND to force manufacturers to produce better, more effective machines rather than just more powerful ones.

robeiae said:

If England left, they wouldn't have to suffer yet another last minute collapse in the Euros?

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We're not in the Euro.

Amadan said:

It's pretty clear to me that, while there may be some travel and trade advantages, there are an awful lot of burdens, economic obligations, and loss of sovereignty that comes with joining the EU too, and I don't see the pragmatic advantage for Britain.

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You're right: we do pay a lot of money to the EU. But we get a huge rebate on the money we're meant to pay (and that amount has been hugely overreported); we get a lot of funding from the EU, too. There's been a substantial fund available for specific regions of the UK which have been struggling, and this has been very helpful; our farmers are given a lot of help, which they really need right now (for example, the shepherd who runs his sheep on the moors near me gets payments for maintaining his fencing so he can keep his sheep off vulnerable areas of moorland which house rare plants or are a specific, rare structure, like peatbogs; he gets payments for keeping the right number of sheep on the right areas, to maintain the moorland, to prevent overgrazing; he gets payments to build drystone walls, which are a special feature of this area; and he gets other payments too). Other groups of people get funding too, and it's been transformative for some of our businesses, and for several areas of our country which were struggling.

(And yeah, I realize I'm a non-European commenting on European politics, but hey, that never stops y'all from Eurosplainin' to us Americans...)

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Until I read this part of your comment I didn't have a problem with anyone asking questions or making points but now I feel prickly about it. Odd how that works, don't you think?

mccardey said:

Thanks for this thread, Alessandra - I was hoping it would come up.

I'd vote to remain, if I had a vote, pretty much for the reason Old Hack gave. And yes, the campaign to leave has been pretty sad. But there's a lot of that going around at the moment.

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The campaign to remain has been pretty sad too.

I just read an interesting (and very persuasive) piece about the referendum on Facebook, which contains lots of helpful links, facts and statistics.

Reservoir Angel said:

I know I'm voting to remain in the EU, despite how much having to agree with David Cameron about something makes my skin crawl.

But that's what I've been driven to when the Vote Leave campaign is seemingly just trying to appeal to the worst instincts of nationalists, doesn't really have any compelling economic case considering their most oft-repeated claim about how much the EU costs us has been shown up as a lie on a multitude of occasions, and any of its promises for the future seem to be largely fantasist ideals pulled from an old hat.

But really when it comes to this campaign, my overwhelming reaction to it is "sick to the back teeth and desperately wishing it would just finally bloody end so I can forget it ever happened."

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All of this is exactly how I feel about the whole thing. ETA: and what old hack said too.

And I hate the term "brexit". I truly hate it.


On a more positive note, every time I look at Donald Trump I appreciate our politicians a little bit more. Even David Cameron.

neandermagnon said:

And I hate the term "brexit". I truly hate it.

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Grexit was already taken, I guess.

Amadan said:

It's pretty clear to me that, while there may be some travel and trade advantages, there are an awful lot of burdens, economic obligations, and loss of sovereignty that comes with joining the EU too, and I don't see the pragmatic advantage for Britain. What I see is the desire for a peaceful, prosperous pan-European federation which... really isn't even on the horizon.

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I have yet to see the burdens, economic obligations and loss of sovereignty explained in a very convincing way by the Leave campaign.

I also think there is no need for the Remain campaign to admit that the EU is currently perfect or does not require reform. I mean, even Yannis Varoufakis thinks that the UK should stay in the EU and it's not like he has many reasons to be a fan of the community.

Old Hack said:

We're not in the Euro.

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The Euros are a European football competition that many people watch.

Cramp said:

I also think there is no need for the Remain campaign to admit that the EU is currently perfect or does not require reform. I mean, even Yannis Varoufakis thinks that the UK should stay in the EU and it's not like he has many reasons to be a fan of the community.

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Past experience has shown the EU to be deeply resistant to reform.

Varoufakis wants as to stay in because we are one of the net contributor nations (£6-7 billion).

Rufus Coppertop said:

The campaign to remain has been pretty sad too.

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As I said - there's a lot of it going around.

Old Hack said:

It was covered in the UK press as an attack on our freedoms, but the reasoning behind it was to reduce our unnecessary power consumption, to protect and improve our environment, AND to force manufacturers to produce better, more effective machines rather than just more powerful ones.

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Well, every regulation has a (presumably) benign intention behind it. That doesn't mean having regulations imposed by external authorities is always a good thing.

Until I read this part of your comment I didn't have a problem with anyone asking questions or making points but now I feel prickly about it. Odd how that works, don't you think?

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Maybe kind of like how when Europeans make cracks about how they don't understand how a "civilized country" can (something something that Europe does ever so much better)?

Amadan said:

Maybe kind of like how when Europeans make cracks about how they don't understand how a "civilized country" can (something something that Europe does ever so much better)?

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That never, ever happens. Ever.

Alessandra Kelley said:

Not at all.

Plenty of regulations are imposed to enrich a supplier, or to stifle competition, or to suppress women's reproductive freedom, or to prevent a minority from exercising its voting rights.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue that *all* regulations are benign (although I have seen many people who argue that all regulation is malevolent).

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Nobody actually proposes a regulation by saying "This will enrich a particular supplier" or "We want to suppress women's reproductive freedom." There is always some reasonable and benign cover for it, however transparent. That's my point. "This regulation was created to pressure manufacturers to reduce energy costs and create better products," etc., may be the stated intention, but the proof is in the outcome.

Amadan said:

There is always some reasonable and benign cover for it, however transparent.

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Won't anyone think of the children?

Amadan said:

There is always some reasonable and benign cover for it, however transparent.

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That's not what you originally said though:

Amadan said:

Well, every regulation has a (presumably) benign intention behind it.

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Which is a very different proposition to the cover that used to make something palatable. And indeed, was the point Alessandra seemed to be replying to.

James D. Macdonald said:

Won't anyone think of the children?

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You make children vacuum? There are child labor laws, you know. Poor little things, forced to use low HP motors!

Yes, mea culpa, I should not have said "Every," I should have said "Almost every."

My point was a response to the proposition that EU regulations are good because they have expressed good intentions. I will endeavor in the future to construct my formulations to be more airtight against pedantic and irrelevant exceptions.