Race swapping existing characters

Status
Not open for further replies.

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
1,312
Location
Where opinions have a distinct aroma.
The last few months, there's been quite a bit of noise in the media about the next James Bond being played by a black actor (Idris Elba has been suggested but hasn't been confirmed). There's also been discussion about a black Doctor Who, and there's also this about a black actress playing Hermione Granger in the stage production of Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. When it comes to the Doctor, it's a well known fact that he regenerates and that these new incarnations vary in age, height, eye colour, and the rest, and some Time Lords have even been known to change sex! We're aware of black Time Lords, so it wouldn't be unthinkable that their species would be non-race specific (indeed followers of the series will have seen it happen that a black female Time Lord regenerated into a middle-aged white male). With Hermione, I fail similarly to see anything about the character that would race-lock her portrayal, and as for James Bond, well, the man's a spy--who's to say 'James Bond' isn't a code name? I'd prefer that so we can drop the throw-back 60's misogynist. At the same time, there are cases where we can't simply change a character's race--cases where racial identity are core to the character's personality or motivations. Major/Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell for example.

I guess my question is (and forgive me if this comes out stupid, I've been trying to phrase it in a way that doesn't make me sound like an idiot), how do we, as writers, decide the importance of race with regards to our characters? Is it always only with regards to back story, or motivated progression? When creating a character, is it equally important that the character could have any other skin colour?
 
Last edited:

Samsonet

Just visiting
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
184
Location
See my avatar? The next galaxy over.
It depends on what you're going for when creating characters.

Some characters are more archetypes than others -- James Bond is great example of this, I think, 'cause he's usually portrayed as a symbol of glamorous espionage instead of as an individual. He could be any race.

When it comes to somebody whose individuality is important to the story (Mr Darcy or Holden Caulfield, maybe? Not sure), it seems like it would ruin the purpose if they could be any race unless that's what the writer intended.

People will headcanon characters however they want, anyway, so I wouldn't want a writer to stress out about whether the character could be read in any way.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
I only saw a little bit of Ghost in the Shell, but I am not clear on why Major Kusanagi being Japanese is a core part of her personality and motivation?
 

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
1,312
Location
Where opinions have a distinct aroma.
The GITS universe is more than just a single film. There are several sequels, prequels and Manga volumes. The story is intrinsically Japanese and covers cultural aspects of the Japanese tech and socio-political revolution of the 80s. Just as PK Dick used a hyperbolic US vs USSR all out war as the precedent for Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, the GITS mangas explores hyperbolic expressions of such climates local to Japan. Kusanagi may be a kickass cyborg, but it matters that she is Japanese, or that backstory is worthless, the critique and worldview of the universe has no weight.
 
Last edited:

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
The GITS universe is more than just a single film. There are several sequels, prequels and Manga volumes. The story is intrinsically Japanese and covers cultural aspect of the Japanese tech and socio-political revolution of the 80s. Just a PK Dick used a hyperbolic US vs USSR all out war as the precedent for Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, the GITS mangas explores hyperbolic expressions of such climates local to Japan. Kusanagi may be a kickass cyborg, but it matters that she is Japanese, or that backstory is worthless, the critique and worldview of the universe has no weight.

Does she have to be racially Japanese, though? It's set in the mid 21st century and I seem to recall quite a few non-ethnically Japanese characters running around.

I don't see how this differs from the argument that James Bond has to be British and white.
 

kborsden

Has a few recurring issues
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
1,312
Location
Where opinions have a distinct aroma.
That's a fair point. James Bond can be any race, as long as his nationality is British; Deckard can be any race, as long as he's American. Kusanagi, doesn't have to be Asian, as long as she is culturally Japanese. After all, aside from a tiny portion of her brain, she is totally cybernetically reconstructed, so the genetics of her parents wont matter either--all that matters appearance-wise would be the beauty ideal of her designer.
 
Last edited:

CL Polk

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
428
Reaction score
70
Location
Canada
It'd be nice to get a black James bond, I guess. Don't really care about bond movies. too much misogyny.

A black Doctor Who...that would be harder. The stories would have to stay out of the past, because of the historical treatment of black people (remember what happened to Martha when they went into the past.)

Kusanagi shouldn't be played by a white actress. There's no excuse for that.

When creating a character, is it equally important that the character could have any other skin colour?

I think that's a dangerous thought. I think that when creating a character these days means sitting down and taking a hard look of the implications of race and the society they're in, because the days of the straight white male default are over (thank goodness!) and so you can't just make assumptions without serious sociological consideration.

Now when you make a character, you're wise to interrogate their social context no matter what race you choose. I mean you can just go on writing cishet white men if that's what you want, nobody's stopping you from creating a character on ezmode. but at least now it's not so reflexive and automatic, and more people are putting more thought into the social context of a character's colour and culture.
 

MurderOfCrows

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Messages
266
Reaction score
21
Location
Utah
That's a fair point. James Bond can be any race, as long as his nationality is British; Deckard can be any race, as long as he's American. Kusanagi, doesn't have to be Asian, as long as she is culturally Japanese. After all, aside from a tiny portion of her brain, she is totally cybernetically reconstructed, so the genetics of her parents wont matter either--all that matters appearance-wise would be the beauty ideal of her designer.
'

Except Major Kusanagi has been a cyborg since she was a child. She has had a body designed and redesigned because it doesn't 'grow' - almost nothing of her is 'natural', no, but eventually she got to chose her appearance as she became an adult. As rooted in Japanese culture as she is, (and as GITS is) there's no reason for her to not be Japanese, ethnically or culturally. Also note that she's lesbian, and has not opted to be anything other than female, either. So why she'd change something as intrinsic to her experience as her race and it's physical expression is kind of weird.

But since SHE'S not making the choice and terrible white-washing casting directors are, the point of what Kusanagi would choose is moot. She's a character. She's culturally Japanese. She should probably racially match that, as opposed to being played by the lovely but very white Scar Jo.
 

allthefeels

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
95
Reaction score
10
Location
California
As a reader (vs. viewer) one of the things I really enjoy is creating a visual of the world I'm reading in my head. This requires the author to give me sufficient detail that I have an outline and important visuals, but not to color in the pages completely for me (this is one of the major reasons I couldn't get into Tolkien). This has translated into how I operate as a writer - I want to allow my theoretical readers the freedom to fill in some of the details, so they can create a world that is uniquely theirs. To that end - if race is an important factor, either to fully understand the time / place, or to truly understand the character, I would absolutely build it out in my mind and probably incorporate elements (if not a full description) in the story. If it isn't relevant, I probably wouldn't sketch that out in my backstory or in the actual work itself. I am also probably not as thorough as most of the writers on this board, so I may be in the minority there.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
It's a total non-issue for Dr Who as regenerating is established as a process that changes age, sex, and race--and possibly more that that.

As James Bond, as originally written, would be long dead by now--and has instead in the movie-verse change appearance, age and arguably nationally--I see him as being essentially the same. I mean, as a literal character he stopped making sense a long time ago.
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
Except when he's Australian, Irish, or all those times he was almost American.


well, that's the actor, not the character.

Bridget Jones was most definitely British, despite Renee Zellwegger playing the role.
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
I heard her accent. I beg to differ. ;)

I didn't say she did a good job playing a British character...

(the first Bridget Jones book was delightful, I thought. I was always irked they didn't do a better job casting that role.)
 
Last edited:

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
It's the character if it's in the performance or even just appearance. If not a black actor would be a non-issue, If Bond sounds Scottish or looks Australian (yes, that is a thing), well... then what else could he be? And if he shapeshifts and lives for decades without (on average) aging... why is race and gender presumed fixed when these other things can change implausibly?
 

Putputt

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
5,448
Reaction score
2,980
Does she have to be racially Japanese, though? It's set in the mid 21st century and I seem to recall quite a few non-ethnically Japanese characters running around.

I don't see how this differs from the argument that James Bond has to be British and white.

It differs from the argument that James Bond has to be British and white because there isn't a history of white roles being constantly given to PoC actors. There is a strong history of PoC roles being played by white actors, which is a problem. The other way around, not so much. There is already a shortage of PoC characters in popular media, and then what few roles there are end up being given to white actors. So yes, it IS different.
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,139
Reaction score
3,082
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
It's the character if it's in the performance or even just appearance. If not a black actor would be a non-issue, If Bond sounds Scottish or looks Australian (yes, that is a thing), well... then what else could he be? And if he shapeshifts and lives for decades without (on average) aging... why is race and gender presumed fixed when these other things can change implausibly?

Twenty years ago an argument could have been made that James Bond needed to be a straight cis white male. That argument is embodied in this speech by Judi Dench as the new M in Goldeneye to Pierce Brosnan's Bond.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEujAIjTldk

She asserts that Bond is a sexist, misogynist dinosaur and a relic of the Cold War. In that context, Bond's orientation and gender probably needed to be straight cis male, the white follows from the relic of the Cold War and the racism of the time. And indeed, the entire plot of Goldeneye revolves around a conflict of Cold War relics in a period when the dinosaurs are dying off in the face of social change (as witnessed by the first female M and a competent hacker as the main Bond Girl).

But even that was two decades ago. To make a contemporary James Bond, one needs to be dealing with current espionage situations in the modern world, even if one is doing so in an over the top absurdist fashion. The social and political changes that have happened since Fleming first wrote Bond and since Dr. No was filmed should not be ignored because they are the context in which new Bond films will be made.

And in that context there is no reason not to recast Bond with nearly any change that seems to work for the current stories.
 

Locke581

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 3, 2015
Messages
165
Reaction score
35
James Bond is a weird one. Technically, he is the same person with the same name and backstory through all the movies, but with the sheer span of time, changes in real-world politics, and the recent pseudo-reboot, it is very hard to justify that continuity. Furthermore, the last thing that a spy should ever look like is a spy. Sean Connery would have made a terrible agent as his looks and height would plainly stand out in a crowd. This might work to Idris Elba's advantage as racist undertones/prejudices would prohibit some people from believing he was a highly trained secret agent and not a stereotypical waiter or nameless background henchman with a big gun and terrible aim.

Dr. Who is not a human at all and therefore is not a member of any "race." He may resemble a human of one race or another, but physically and culturally he does not have a human "race." Though his attitudes and behaviors do seem to change subtly when he regenerates between forms to somewhat match his current incarnation. From what I understand, he has little or no control over his next form. Old/young, male/female, one race/another, who is to say? One characteristic makes just as much sense as another.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.