Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?

mccardey · Jun 3, 2016

gettingby said:
What? You can break it up if you want, but I see the scene as a whole which does go beyond fiction and the journals. I have no idea what "multiple scenes" you are talking about? Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea that there is a literary scene? I feel sorry for anyone who dismisses this. But it's there for anyone who is interested and wants to be a part of it.

I'm not sure that anyone here is not accepting the idea that there's a literary scene. I think most of us are part of it, either as readers or writers. I just think you don't get to be the final arbiter of what it is, where it ends, and what discussions of it should look like.

If you're not getting takers in your discussion threads, maybe have a wee look at your tone.

gettingby · Jun 4, 2016

mccardey said:
I'm not sure that anyone here is not accepting the idea that there's a literary scene. I think most of us are part of it, either as readers or writers. I just think you don't get to be the final arbiter of what it is, where it ends, and what discussions of it should look like.

If you're not getting takers in your discussion threads, maybe have a wee look at your tone.

I never claimed to know the scene fully and I don't think there are limits around it. But I do like reading the books that win awards or the short stories in The New Yorker and literary journals. I like to read author interviews and book reviews. I go to literary events when I can. It's not some sort of exclusive club by any means. And I am never trying to make it sound like it is. But there is a scene. And I like to know what's happening in the scene. That's the kind of research I would do if I were the OP. For me, I do it anyway because I like this stuff. I don't understand how anyone could think that literary fiction had some bad rep., like the OP thought it could. That's what she called this thread. Literary fiction is amazing and if that's what the OP likes, she should check it out. Not by starting a thread about people not liking it but by reading the contemporary works and getting a feel for what's out there.

dragonfliet · Jun 4, 2016

Here is a strange, not entirely true thing: Forums give literary fiction a bad rap because they tend to exist largely OUTSIDE of the circle of influence of literary fiction. Literary fiction tends to be focused largely around the university setting. Either in creative writing classes, or the MFA, and these tend to have their own particular writing communities. Much/most of the internet forums I've come across has been outside of that particular sphere of influence. If you take your high fantasy to many College creative writing classes (not all), it will be dismissed, but it's popular, and thus those dismissed people have congregated and supported. I see very few people in the creative writing programs visiting forums such as this, and other lively communities. The result is a kind of alienation. Neither is particularly better or worse than the other (though I tend to prefer communities where I can physically drink with people), but they are a bit different.

There is nothing wrong with literary fiction. It isn't "hard" to sell. There is nothing snobby about identifying your book as being literary fiction, and there is no barrier of entry for new people in literary fiction (or no more than there is for any new person). Anyone that tells you otherwise knows very little about the genre.

As for your secondary question: there is no real difference in formatting. Hook 'em, explain the book briefly, introduce yourself, and that's it.

mccardey · Jun 4, 2016

gettingby said:
I never claimed to know the scene fully and I don't think there are limits around it. But I do like reading the books that win awards or the short stories in The New Yorker and literary journals. I like to read author interviews and book reviews. I go to literary events when I can. It's not some sort of exclusive club by any means. And I am never trying to make it sound like it is. But there is a scene.

So do I, but I don't call it a scene. It's just reading and writing and going to to conferences.

I think that's where we differ. Perhaps it's just a definitional thing. To me, a scene is exclusive. Reading lit fic, writing lit fic, going to conferences, reading about conferences, all that sort of stuff just happens.

gettingby said:
And I like to know what's happening in the scene. That's the kind of research I would do if I were the OP. For me, I do it anyway because I like this stuff. I don't understand how anyone could think that literary fiction had some bad rep., like the OP thought it could. That's what she called this thread. Literary fiction is amazing and if that's what the OP likes, she should check it out. Not by starting a thread about people not liking it but by reading the contemporary works and getting a feel for what's out there.

The OP started the thread because she disagreed with the idea that lit fic should have or has a bad rep. It's a valid reason to start a thread. She's said very clearly that she loves lit fic, she reads it and writes it. I'd say that already makes her part of whatever lit fic scene there is.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with, and to be honest I'm having trouble pinning your argument down.

Lit fic exists, people love, a person who loves it and writes it herself has started a thread to discuss an aspect of (some) people's reported perception of it. That seems pretty much in keeping with your desire to read, (write?) love and talk about lit fic, no?

I'm very confused.

Ari Meermans · Jun 4, 2016

MOD NOTE:

gettingby said:
I never claimed to know the scene fully and I don't think there are limits around it. But I do like reading the books that win awards or the short stories in The New Yorker and literary journals. I like to read author interviews and book reviews. I go to literary events when I can. It's not some sort of exclusive club by any means. And I am never trying to make it sound like it is. But there is a scene. And I like to know what's happening in the scene. That's the kind of research I would do if I were the OP. For me, I do it anyway because I like this stuff. I don't understand how anyone could think that literary fiction had some bad rep., like the OP thought it could. That's what she called this thread. Literary fiction is amazing and if that's what the OP likes, she should check it out. Not by starting a thread about people not liking it but by reading the contemporary works and getting a feel for what's out there.

You know what? No, just freakin', no. You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the OP here with regard to her knowledge and experience with lit fic. She writes it, after all. Let's dial that argumentative lecturing back, 'kay? Also? Telling another member what they may or may not start a thread about is not on. Not. having. it. here.

Carry on.

VeryBigBeard · Jun 4, 2016

mccardey said:
I think most of us are part of it, either as readers or writers.

Exactly this. We all read. We all write. We are all concerned with things literary in nature.

Which is kind of what I was trying to get at yesterday: literary as a definition doesn't particularly matter. Myself, I care about stories and how they work. Other people might key on themes, or particular genres, or other technical aspects of fiction, or specific characters as fans often do. All of these things are or can be literary both in nature or in market, which makes us all part of the literary community.

Lillith1991 · Jun 4, 2016

VeryBigBeard said:
Exactly this. We all read. We all write. We are all concerned with things literary in nature.

Which is kind of what I was trying to get at yesterday: literary as a definition doesn't particularly matter. Myself, I care about stories and how they work. Other people might key on themes, or particular genres, or other technical aspects of fiction, or specific characters as fans often do. All of these things are or can be literary both in nature or in market, which makes us all part of the literary community.

I disagree with the bolded. Strenuously.

Literary Fiction doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, and I'm fine admitting that as a both a person who reads and writes this style/genre/whatever. But the definition itself matters in that it provides a way for people, some snobby about genre fiction and some not like with any aspect of fiction, to find the types of stories they like to read. Saying that everything is "Literary" diminishes that. Not everything is Literary with a capital L and that's okay, because reading would be boring if everything was the same.

DeannaR · Jun 4, 2016

Well, if nothing else this thread has established that there is a lot of passion for lit fic. Im glad that most understood my motivation for asking the question. I'm sorry others have taken offense to it. I'm getting a little annoyed by the constant attack on me when it appears that they're no longer reading what I'm posting to clarify. But, I suppose that is the way it goes. I thought this would be a great place to start a discussion, and I suppose it was as there has been a lot of great feedback. I will reiterate that I appreciate seeing the passion everyone has for a style that is close to my heart.

AW Admin · Jun 4, 2016

gettingby said:
What? You can break it up if you want, but I see the scene as a whole which does go beyond fiction and the journals. I have no idea what "multiple scenes" you are talking about? Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea that there is a literary scene? I feel sorry for anyone who dismisses this. But it's there for anyone who is interested and wants to be a part of it.

Because your using idiosyncratic and self-absorbed definitions. I assure you as someone who receives comped subscriptions to a number of journals and volunteers for PEN that you're being ethnocentric in the extreme.

1. English isn't the only language.

2. There are poets and writers and communities of them all over the world.

3. The definition of mainstream and literary and the works and writers they encompass are not circumscribed by your personal tastes.

4. The people posting in this thread all love literature; your love doesn't trump theirs.

5. Being snotty about literary fiction toward people who publish and write literary fiction is a fool's move.

AW Admin · Jun 4, 2016

DeannaR said:
Well, if nothing else this thread has established that there is a lot of passion for lit fic. Im glad that most understood my motivation for asking the question. I'm sorry others have taken offense to it. I'm getting a little annoyed by the constant attack on me when it appears that they're no longer reading what I'm posting to clarify. But, I suppose that is the way it goes. I thought this would be a great place to start a discussion, and I suppose it was as there has been a lot of great feedback. I will reiterate that I appreciate seeing the passion everyone has for a style that is close to my heart.

I think it works best if people talk about a specific writer or book and what they love/admire or find puzzling or challenging. I joked about getting rid of Henry James' novels earlier. I do admire James, and have read most of his work (a couple short stories and a few essays aside). But I read James first out of curiosity and secondly because large swathes of James were required reading in grad school classes, and then later because I took the Ph.D. qualifying exam on the novel.

I do understand why so many people love James. But he's not for me. But to swing back to the topic, if James' books were stacked in a pile and I was told "Here! This is the definitive example of literary fiction!" I'd go away thinking I don't really like lit fic.

And I think that's been what many people have experienced, though not necessarily with James.

But there are many examples of literary fiction I love. Gabriel Garcia Marquez I loved enough that I worked through Cien anos de soledad slowly, laboriously in Spanish. I love A. S. Byatt, some books more than others.

I think what makes the difference for many is the book at hand. And what makes readers read a particular book is quite often an enthusiastic endorsement by another reader, especially of the "if you like Book Y, you might really also like Book X."

Old Hack · Jun 4, 2016

dragonfliet said:
Literary fiction tends to be focused largely around the university setting. Either in creative writing classes, or the MFA, and these tend to have their own particular writing communities.

I don't think this is true at all.

I've always read literary fiction, and I've spent a lot of time in various writing communities in real life, and have had very little interaction with universities or university types. I took an MA in writing a decade or so ago and much of the work I encountered through it was what I'd describe as commercial fiction, but not necessarily literary.

I see very few people in the creative writing programs visiting forums such as this, and other lively communities.

Again, I don't think this is true. AW has many members who, like me, have masters degrees in writing. So do other writers' communities.

There is nothing wrong with literary fiction. It isn't "hard" to sell. There is nothing snobby about identifying your book as being literary fiction, and there is no barrier of entry for new people in literary fiction (or no more than there is for any new person). Anyone that tells you otherwise knows very little about the genre.

The thing about literary fiction which many writers don't realise is that it's not a genre we should worry about. It doesn't have its own shelf-space in bookshops, so we should query our work as general fiction, commercial fiction, that sort of thing.

DeannaR · Jun 4, 2016

Old Hack said:
The thing about literary fiction which many writers don't realise is that it's not a genre we should worry about. It doesn't have its own shelf-space in bookshops, so we should query our work as general fiction, commercial fiction, that sort of thing.

Literary fiction is not a genre, but it is a style and a way to pitch and sell the work. More a sales term than anything else (so it is noted above, somewhere) as such wouldn't it be beneficial to use this when pitching to agents? (Asking in ernest.)

AW Admin · Jun 4, 2016

dragonfliet said:
If you take your high fantasy to many College creative writing classes (not all), it will be dismissed, but it's popular, and thus those dismissed people have congregated and supported. I see very few people in the creative writing programs visiting forums such as this, and other lively communities..

We have a lot of MFA folks here. Certainly more MFAs than MLS or straight M.A. in English degrees. We even have a handful of Ph.D.s in Creative Writing, a fairly new degree.

We have mods with MFAs.

We have MFA-wielding members from Iowa Writers, Stone Coast, Breadloaf, London University, Columbia, Warren Wilson, and a host of other institutions with MFAs. I've taught in MFA programs, and been on hiring committees.

Moreover, genre fiction is the primary emphasis for several newer MFA programs, most notably, Stone Coast.

There are all kinds of people in the world, all kinds of writers, and all manner of books. They're not all on a single X/Y axis. And there's room for all of them.

But what I wish all readers would do is talk about the books they love. Let's surface those books and writers.

AW Admin · Jun 4, 2016

DeannaR said:
Literary fiction is not a genre, but it is a style and a way to pitch and sell the work. More a sales term than anything else (so it is noted above, somewhere) as such wouldn't it be beneficial to use this when pitching to agents? (Asking in ernest.)

If the agent specifically says they rep Lit Fic, it's worth considering certainly. The thing that makes it tricky is that person A may consider book X lit fic, but person Z might say nonsense, that's a bildungsroman or a thriller or whatever.

Were it me, I'd pitch to agents who repp'd lit fic, but I would concentrate on my book and not its genre, as Old Hack says.

Often a book might qualify as lit fic in an editor's view, but marketing thinks they can sell more if they label it as a particular genre, or just sell it as a novel, no label.

Ari Meermans · Jun 4, 2016

AW Admin said:
But what I wish all readers would do is talk about the books they love. Let's surface those books and writers.

I'll second this. There's a great big world of literary fiction out there. What have you read that you find unforgettable? Whose work really digs deep into your mind and soul?

DeannaR · Jun 4, 2016

That makes sense.

On a side note, you can get a phd in creative writing? That is pretty awesome. I always thought (but as you say it is new) mfa was as far as one could take it.

As for a book, which I mentioned earlier and just finished reading... Ru by Kim Thùy. I would consider it lit fic and highly recommend it. Beautifully written, unique.

Old Hack · Jun 4, 2016

DeannaR said:
Literary fiction is not a genre, but it is a style and a way to pitch and sell the work. More a sales term than anything else (so it is noted above, somewhere) as such wouldn't it be beneficial to use this when pitching to agents? (Asking in ernest.)

I was talking with a group of agents a year or two back--half a dozen UK agents, three NY ones--and while some of them said in their submission guidelines that they liked literary fiction, they all said that they didn't think it was necessarily a good thing to query as lit fic. Far better, they all agreed, to query your work as a genre which you can find on bookshop shelves. And the more commercial the genre the better. They love good writing: they sell commercial writing. Does that make sense?

AW Admin said:
Were it me, I'd pitch to agents who repp'd lit fic, but I would concentrate on my book and not its genre, as Old Hack says.

Often a book might qualify as lit fic in an editor's view, but marketing thinks they can sell more if they label it as a particular genre, or just sell it as a novel, no label.

Exactly.

DeannaR said:
That makes sense.

On a side note, you can get a phd in creative writing? That is pretty awesome. I always thought (but as you say it is new) mfa was as far as one could take it.

Yes, you can!

I applied for a PhD scholarship a couple of years ago but didn't get it; I applied for another this year, was interviewed and told unofficially that I had the scholarship, and then the next day I was told that the funding had been withdrawn and I'd have to reapply next year. I'm not sure I'll do it. But it would be fun to be able to tell people, "You can trust me, I'm a doctor."

dragonfliet · Jun 4, 2016

Old Hack said:
I don't think this is true at all.

I've always read literary fiction, and I've spent a lot of time in various writing communities in real life, and have had very little interaction with universities or university types. I took an MA in writing a decade or so ago and much of the work I encountered through it was what I'd describe as commercial fiction, but not necessarily literary.
...

I suppose I will back up what I said, because I'm obviously wrong, and I feel like I implied something I wasn't meaning to. I have found that most of these communities have a much larger community focused on genres, and even within those that love literary fiction, and who write literary fiction, the emphasis has been on selling and marketing towards commercial fiction (which overlaps significantly, but the commercial aspect as something more prominently focused on).

While I'm still quite a newbie here, I've read a LOT of threads, and the vibe is MUCH different than those in literary fiction communities I have been a part of elsewhere. I don't mean to imply anything other than there seems to be a different focus, which would explain the seeming hostility that the OP has noticed.

AW Admin said:
We have a lot of MFA folks here. Certainly more MFAs than MLS or straight M.A. in English degrees. We even have a handful of Ph.D.s in Creative Writing, a fairly new degree.

We have mods with MFAs.

We have MFA-wielding members from Iowa Writers, Stone Coast, Breadloaf, London University, Columbia, Warren Wilson, and a host of other institutions with MFAs. I've taught in MFA programs, and been on hiring committees.

Moreover, genre fiction is the primary emphasis for several newer MFA programs, most notably, Stone Coast.

There are all kinds of people in the world, all kinds of writers, and all manner of books. They're not all on a single X/Y axis. And there's room for all of them...

To clarify even more. I feel like my statement as being perceived as me saying that there isn't overlap between these different communities (there is), but I mean instead that there is a different feeling. You're right that there are a few MFAs in various genres (they're relatively few and far between, comparatively, but exist, and are marvelous), and I don't doubt that there are plenty of people who are doing great work here with many interested degrees in backgrounds. But the focus on this site, and many others, is in placing work commercially, and finding the correct genre in which to classify it. There has been a LOT of scoffing at the idea of literary fiction, and fiction that seems to not fit into a particular genre category is often encouraged to be pushed in that direction. This isn't because of educational lacks, or anything bad, but a different focus.

Btw, I am one of those people within a PhD writing program. The vibe, advice, feedback, and atmosphere here is extremely, extremely different from other writing communities I have been a part of. This is part of the reason why I'm here in the first place.

DeannaR said:
...On a side note, you can get a phd in creative writing? That is pretty awesome. I always thought (but as you say it is new) mfa was as far as one could take it....

The PhD is still pretty new, and it has a very limited use. The MFA is still considered a "terminal degree" in that it's all you really need to get a job teaching writing at 99.999% of places. The most important thing is your publication record for that. The PhD just makes getting a job easier. The PhD is a literature degree with a creative dissertation (hooray, not having to write 200 pages on Milton or Pynchon or whatever). While there are some really incredible writing programs throughout the country, MOST schools are smaller, or have much smaller writing programs and don't necessarily have the luxury of hiring someone to teach only creative writing (or, if they do, they can have only one or two on staff). The PhD gives you the credentials and experience to teach literature courses as well as writing courses, so hiring committees have more flexibility in bringing writers in. So even though it's a creative writing PhD, the focus is less on the writing aspect, and more a hybrid academic development.

VeryBigBeard · Jun 4, 2016

Lillith1991 said:
I disagree with the bolded. Strenuously.

Literary Fiction doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, and I'm fine admitting that as a both a person who reads and writes this style/genre/whatever. But the definition itself matters in that it provides a way for people, some snobby about genre fiction and some not like with any aspect of fiction, to find the types of stories they like to read. Saying that everything is "Literary" diminishes that. Not everything is Literary with a capital L and that's okay, because reading would be boring if everything was the same.

Just to be really clear, in case it was mis-read, I absolutely meant nothing dismissive when I said I don't particularly care about the definition. I'm really just trying to be honest and add a point of view. I would say the same thing about sci-fi, or fantasy, or what makes a game a game.

Make something cool. Have fun doing it. Worry what it is afterwards.

I think there are tremendous discussions to be had about the definitions and how they're set out, and what they encompass. They can absolutely serve a communicative purpose and I have bought books or games or whatnot because of genre and/or marketing category before. And I will again. There's value in the discussion, but definitions can vary depending on background, or form, or perspective. Sometimes the idea gets communicated and this is great. Sometimes it breaks down, and I apologize if I've contributed to that. Most of the time it is fun to have the discussion, though.

AW Admin said:
I think what makes the difference for many is the book at hand. And what makes readers read a particular book is quite often an enthusiastic endorsement by another reader, especially of the "if you like Book Y, you might really also like Book X."

For me, it comes down to this. Entirely.

Helix · Jun 4, 2016

dragonfliet said:
I suppose I will back up what I said, because I'm obviously wrong, and I feel like I implied something I wasn't meaning to. I have found that most of these communities have a much larger community focused on genres, and even within those that love literary fiction, and who write literary fiction, the emphasis has been on selling and marketing towards commercial fiction (which overlaps significantly, but the commercial aspect as something more prominently focused on).

While I'm still quite a newbie here, I've read a LOT of threads, and the vibe is MUCH different than those in literary fiction communities I have been a part of elsewhere. I don't mean to imply anything other than there seems to be a different focus, which would explain the seeming hostility that the OP has noticed.

To clarify even more. I feel like my statement as being perceived as me saying that there isn't overlap between these different communities (there is), but I mean instead that there is a different feeling. You're right that there are a few MFAs in various genres (they're relatively few and far between, comparatively, but exist, and are marvelous), and I don't doubt that there are plenty of people who are doing great work here with many interested degrees in backgrounds. But the focus on this site, and many others, is in placing work commercially, and finding the correct genre in which to classify it. There has been a LOT of scoffing at the idea of literary fiction, and fiction that seems to not fit into a particular genre category is often encouraged to be pushed in that direction. This isn't because of educational lacks, or anything bad, but a different focus.

Btw, I am one of those people within a PhD writing program. The vibe, advice, feedback, and atmosphere here is extremely, extremely different from other writing communities I have been a part of. This is part of the reason why I'm here in the first place.

The PhD is still pretty new, and it has a very limited use. The MFA is still considered a "terminal degree" in that it's all you really need to get a job teaching writing at 99.999% of places. The most important thing is your publication record for that. The PhD just makes getting a job easier. The PhD is a literature degree with a creative dissertation (hooray, not having to write 200 pages on Milton or Pynchon or whatever). While there are some really incredible writing programs throughout the country, MOST schools are smaller, or have much smaller writing programs and don't necessarily have the luxury of hiring someone to teach only creative writing (or, if they do, they can have only one or two on staff). The PhD gives you the credentials and experience to teach literature courses as well as writing courses, so hiring committees have more flexibility in bringing writers in. So even though it's a creative writing PhD, the focus is less on the writing aspect, and more a hybrid academic development.

When you say 'throughout the country', you mean the USA, yes?

dragonfliet · Jun 4, 2016

Helix said:
When you say 'throughout the country', you mean the USA, yes?

Yeah, sorry. I don't know very much at all about writing programs outside of the US.

mccardey · Jun 4, 2016

Ari Meermans said:
I'll second this. There's a great big world of literary fiction out there. What have you read that you find unforgettable? Whose work really digs deep into your mind and soul?

Huge world. My unforgettables are Gillian Mears "Foal's Bread". Carrie Tiffany's "Mateship With Birds" and everything Marilynne Robinson ever wrote or thought about writing. They're at the top of my list of Books To Be Buried With.

Ari Meermans · Jun 4, 2016

mccardey said:
Huge world. My unforgettables are Gillian Mears "Foal's Bread". Carrie Tiffany's "Mateship With Birds" and everything Marilynne Robinson ever wrote or thought about writing. They're at the top of my list of Books To Be Buried With.

Yes. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sending me both of them. Ah, but Foal's Bread—there are passages in that novel that make me ache for the sheer beauty of what the mastery of language can do with motifs and themes.

DeannaR · Jun 4, 2016

*adds to purchase list*

mccardey · Jun 4, 2016

Ari Meermans said:
Yes. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sending me both of them. Ah, but Foal's Bread—there are passages in that novel that make me ache for the sheer beauty of what the mastery of language can do with motifs and themes.

She died, you know - last month. She was only 52. Such a loss.

Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?

mccardey

gettingby

dragonfliet

mccardey

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

Lillith1991

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

DeannaR

AW Admin

AW Admin

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

DeannaR

AW Admin

AW Admin

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

DeannaR

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

dragonfliet

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

Helix

socially distancing

dragonfliet

mccardey

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

DeannaR

mccardey