Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?

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DeannaR

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Her work might be literary fiction, but she said she did research and came up with the idea that there's some bad feeling about literary fiction today. I don't know what kind of research she's doing, but it sure doesn't seem the right kind of research to get a feel for today's literary market.

I just don't see the point and personally think it seems kind of amateur to call something a literary novel vs. just calling it a novel. Sure, make sure that agent of publisher takes literary fiction, if that is indeed what it is, but I don't think it has to be said in a query. And I did get from the OP the feeling she thought her work was somehow better if it was called literary.

Ok. I do not think this, nor imply it. By calling it literary fiction i am trying to define it. I would need to define it when querying. To say just "novel" I would be ignoring the stipulations of every agent I researched.
 

gettingby

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Ok. I do not think this, nor imply it. By calling it literary fiction i am trying to define it. I would need to define it when querying. To say just "novel" I would be ignoring the stipulations of every agent I researched.

Not trying to start anything. It was just my take on things. I still stand by the fact that if you think there is a negative response to today's literary scene, you don't really know today's literary scene and that I wouldn't call my novel literary in a query even if that's what it is. I just find it odd to say literary novel in a query. Good luck.
 

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Not trying to start anything. It was just my take on things. I still stand by the fact that if you think there is a negative response to today's literary scene, you don't really know today's literary scene and that I wouldn't call my novel literary in a query even if that's what it is. I just find it odd to say literary novel in a query. Good luck.

It's not just about what one says in a query (FWIW, I wouldn't say "literary fiction" in a query either, unless there was absolutely no crossover with any genre that I could claim) but it's also a valuable consideration to take into account when choosing whom to submit to. Some agents do say "no lit fic" - I suspect sometimes because there are people who say "It's lit fic" to excuse any failings. And there are also agents who specifically say they're keen on lit fic.

It's all information - and that's really what D has asked for. D didn't say there is a negative response to lit fic. She asked if there was. Asking questions is most of what AW is.
 

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If only we had another lit fic thread....

Ain't it the truth.

Lit fic has been "near and dear" to my heart since I was a tadpole and I rather selfishly hope we can manage somehow to keep this thread open. I have only two places I can have discussions about books and writing: AW and the running monologue in my head. So.
 

ap123

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The last mss I queried was magical realism, which is a sub genre of lit fic. Many more agents specifically state they rep lit fic than mr, so except for the few who said they rep mr, I queried it as lit fic. I received requests, and no blowback from querying it as such.

IMO, the thing is to make sure your query clearly demonstrates there is a story, interesting characters, and sharp writing. Kinda like any other query. Though I know writing a query for lit fic can feel impossible when reading examples for queries that emphasize romance, other worlds, and espionage ;) it can be done, and you can do it. Once you label it lit fic, you want your query to demonstrate clearly this isn't 350 pages of navel gazing.

Just my .02, ymmv, I'm an unpubbed peasant, etc etc.
 

DeannaR

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I have enjoyed the discussion here. I am learning my way around and trying to figure out exactly how to pitch, query, or what have you. I thoroughly enjoy reading others experiences with this style, genre... I have a hard time calling it a genre because I don't think it really is. But that is just my take on things. It seems my question ruffled a few feathers, but I get it. I am sure once I get some experience under my belt seeing threads titled as such will cause the hairs on the back of my neck to rise. My questions were meant only as that, I am trying to learn to hear others experience and gather information. What better place than here? But, ruffled feathers included, this was a great discussion wasn't it??? I love hearing the passion in others even when it feels like an attack on me. Passion about literature is a wonderful thing and I can't get enough of it.

To continue the discussion,

What are some of your favourite novels today that would be considered literary fiction? One I just finished reading is Ru by Kim Thuy. The style of writing is very unique I have not read another book like it. It painted a beautiful, albeit, heartbreaking, picture.
 

VeryBigBeard

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I have a hard time calling it a genre because I don't think it really is.

I know I'm picking at just one line here, and perhaps it doesn't really matter, but I think it's an important distinction.

There is more in common between "genre" fiction and "literary" fiction than there is difference. Much more in common. Be careful of drawing too stiff a distinction because, ultimately, they're both stories. And what makes stories work, narratologically, is entirely shared between lit-fic and genre, and between romance and MilSF, and between kid-lit and memoir. Compelling dramatic situations, good character motivation and stakes, interesting plot that engages by playing with tension and expectation, writing that leads the reader into the story. Absent any one of these and the story will be weaker, no matter what genre it is.

Ergo, lit-fic is a genre. That's why I put scare-quotes around "genre" and "literary" fiction above, because in so far as they're genres at all, there is no divide between them. The distinction is useful, in certain comparative cases, and there are certain audience-related distinctions between what might be called commercial fiction and what might be called literary--e.g., literary tends to win more prizes, commercial fiction tends to sell more copies. But that's a generalization and even it breaks down when you consider many authors write both, could be categorized as both, both can sell very well, and most readers read from both pots.

Genres themselves are basically groups of commonalities. They're useful narratologically in that they create expectations in their readers, which can then be subverted. Any story that hews too close to genre standards runs the risk of being boring. A genre is defined in large part by tropes and in smaller part by structure. Tropes are not bad. Even lit-fic has them.

There's a tendency in some quarters to draw this hard line between "genre" fiction and "literary" fiction, as if the two are different. Other than as an interesting topic for discussion, I've never seen anything good come of drawing this distinction. It's not even a particularly interesting narrative analysis. If applied too rigorously to the writing or creating of a story, it tends, in my experience, to result in stories that try very hard to be something they're not. This goes as much for superhero stories as it does for contemporary or introspective literary stuff. A story works when it pushes and plays with those expectations. All stories push reality. All stories mix genres.

Instead, try distinguishing "book" and "story". Story being the words, the world being created and told by the fire. Books being the actual experience, the turning of the page, the fancy cover. Story being the magic that we create while banging our heads against a desk, whereas books are professionally crafted products. Genre is a very useful tool for getting from story to book. Literary is a descriptor that may indicate some elements of the writing, style, or theme of the book. Thinking of story and book as different helps, I find, with separating oneself from projects--kind of essential--and also helps keep things straight if and when stories morph across media since "story" can be applied and translated into different media but a "book" is always a bound object with pages and certain other conventions that takes up space on your shelf or your Kindle. Books have genres. Stories do not. Books are literary. Stories are written.

Sincerely,
A Literary Fantasy Writer
 

gettingby

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Just what is "today's literary scene"? Perhaps that's a question for another thread.

Today's literary scene is nothing more than who is hot and worth paying attention to. When someone comes here and says "Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?," my first thought is they don't know or aren't paying attention to who is publishing what in today's literary scene or they would never ask that kind of question. When someone says they have done research into literary fiction, I think that means they are reading the books that win prizes and literary journals. Sure, there is a lot more to the literary scene, but if you pick up The Paris Review (which is one of the top places publishing literary works, that will easily lead to more literary reading as most contributors have books already out and/or new ones coming out. There should be no debate that there is a valid and lively literary scene.
 

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The last mss I queried was magical realism, which is a sub genre of lit fic.

I have enjoyed the discussion here. I am learning my way around and trying to figure out exactly how to pitch, query, or what have you. I thoroughly enjoy reading others experiences with this style, genre... I have a hard time calling it a genre because I don't think it really is.

Literary fiction, as much as I love and admire it, isn't a genre. It's a marketing category. It subsumes genres.

Magical realism isn't a genre either; it's a style. That said, it's becoming formalized enough that it may actually result in a formal genre in just a few more years.

This isn't a qualitative issue for me; I love all of them.

A work of literary fiction can be a mystery, a romance, or SF, or a picaresque or epistolary or none of the above or another genre. It can be a novel, or a short story, or a novella.

Ergo, lit-fic is a genre. That's why I put scare-quotes around "genre" and "literary" fiction above, because in so far as they're genres at all, there is no divide between them. The distinction is useful, in certain comparative cases, and there are certain audience-related distinctions between what might be called commercial fiction and what might be called literary--e.g., literary tends to win more prizes, commercial fiction tends to sell more copies. But that's a generalization and even it breaks down when you consider many authors write both, could be categorized as both, both can sell very well, and most readers read from both pots.

I think you're somewhat misunderstanding what genre is. Much of what you're saying describes fiction, not genre.

Genres themselves are basically groups of commonalities. They're useful narratologically in that they create expectations in their readers, which can then be subverted. Any story that hews too close to genre standards runs the risk of being boring. A genre is defined in large part by tropes and in smaller part by structure. Tropes are not bad. Even lit-fic has them.

Given that the site misuses the word trope I'm not really sure it's a viable citation.

It's confusing theme and motif, for one thing.

There's a tendency in some quarters to draw this hard line between "genre" fiction and "literary" fiction, as if the two are different. Other than as an interesting topic for discussion, I've never seen anything good come of drawing this distinction. It's not even a particularly interesting narrative analysis. If applied too rigorously to the writing or creating of a story, it tends, in my experience, to result in stories that try very hard to be something they're not. This goes as much for superhero stories as it does for contemporary or introspective literary stuff. A story works when it pushes and plays with those expectations. All stories push reality. All stories mix genres.

Now you'e confusing theme and motif. A superhero is a motif; motifs in the collective can support themes. Neither of these are genres.

Instead, try distinguishing "book" and "story". Story being the words, the world being created and told by the fire. Books being the actual experience, the turning of the page, the fancy cover. Story being the magic that we create while banging our heads against a desk, whereas books are professionally crafted products. Genre is a very useful tool for getting from story to book. Literary is a descriptor that may indicate some elements of the writing, style, or theme of the book. Thinking of story and book as different helps, I find, with separating oneself from projects--kind of essential--and also helps keep things straight if and when stories morph across media since "story" can be applied and translated into different media but a "book" is always a bound object with pages and certain other conventions that takes up space on your shelf or your Kindle. Books have genres. Stories do not. Books are literary. Stories are written.

You're presenting your personal and viable for you definitions for words that have a long-running agreed upon standard usage. It's muddying the waters.

A book is not always a bound object with pages; the word book itself etymologically derives from beech; because early Germanic peoples used strips of beech wood to inscribe runes. The Latin word for book, liber originally meant bark, because early Romans used the smooth inner bark of trees to write on.

Ultimately what you're trying to reinvent is the distinction E. M. Forster makes in Aspects of The Novel between story and plot. to wit: "The king died and then the queen died is a story. The king died, and then queen died of grief is a plot."
 
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DeannaR

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Today's literary scene is nothing more than who is hot and worth paying attention to. When someone comes here and says "Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?," my first thought is they don't know or aren't paying attention to who is publishing what in today's literary scene or they would never ask that kind of question. When someone says they have done research into literary fiction, I think that means they are reading the books that win prizes and literary journals. Sure, there is a lot more to the literary scene, but if you pick up The Paris Review (which is one of the top places publishing literary works, that will easily lead to more literary reading as most contributors have books already out and/or new ones coming out. There should be no debate that there is a valid and lively literary scene.

I seem to have offended you with my question. It is not that I am questioning literary fiction, but why it seems that (to some) claiming the title is bad. I read it, I love it, I have researched it. I see the awards and everything else. I also read a variety of other opinion pieces, agent blogs, etc etc and I was getting conflicting ideas. Which is why I decided to post the question here.
 

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VeryBigBeard,

What I meant by that line, is that literary fiction does not stand as it's own genre, that there are genres within lit fic. But lit fic itself is a comment on style and subject rather than a specific genre. I think you can have YA lit fic, which would be a genre. Or Fantasy lit fic. but lit fic itself seems to suggest style. At least this is what I have read and the conclusions I came to. Perhaps I am wrong on this front. There seems to be a wide array of opinion on this.

You're not wrong, though YA is, like lit fic, is a marketing category. YA novels can be SF, or Romance, or any number of genres (though the bildungsroman is still very common), and yes, YA novels can be lit fic.
 

VeryBigBeard

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Ultimately what you're trying to reinvent is the distinction E. M. Forster makes in Aspects of The Novel between story and plot. to wit: "The king died and then the queen died is a story. The king died, and then queen died of grief is a plot."

Fair points, and thanks for making them.

I was speaking broadly, perhaps too much so given that the lit-fic discussion inevitably has to be nuanced. A lot of how I presented this is based in personal experience rather than proper theory, which while I enjoy I'm actually pretty terrible at both studying and articulating. I know just enough to get myself in trouble :greenie.

Mostly I'm just good at making stuff up. I tend to care less what, exactly, those things are, perhaps to a fault. I work with different forms a lot, so maybe I'm talking more about form vs. function than story vs. plot, though now that you mention it that is probably the better framework.

Anyway, I thought I'd share and apologies if I muddied waters with the terminology.
 
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mccardey

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Today's literary scene is nothing more than who is hot and worth paying attention to. When someone comes here and says "Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?," my first thought is they don't know or aren't paying attention to who is publishing what in today's literary scene or they would never ask that kind of question. When someone says they have done research into literary fiction, I think that means they are reading the books that win prizes and literary journals. Sure, there is a lot more to the literary scene, but if you pick up The Paris Review (which is one of the top places publishing literary works, that will easily lead to more literary reading as most contributors have books already out and/or new ones coming out. There should be no debate that there is a valid and lively literary scene.
Oh come now, I think it's a bit more than that. That's only the most visible aspect - it's not the entire scene. And the Paris Review is excellent, but it's not the only litmag around.
 

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Today's literary scene is nothing more than who is hot and worth paying attention to.

So the only books worth paying attention to are the best-sellers? Or the ones deemed to be worthwhile by...someone? Isn't that equivalent to defining today's movie scene by which films get Oscars? That's rather regimented, isn't it?

When someone comes here and says "Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?," my first thought is they don't know or aren't paying attention to who is publishing what in today's literary scene or they would never ask that kind of question.

That's where we differ. My first thought is to consider the question "Does Literary Fiction have a bad rep?".

When someone says they have done research into literary fiction, I think that means they are reading the books that win prizes and literary journals. Sure, there is a lot more to the literary scene, but if you pick up The Paris Review (which is one of the top places publishing literary works, that will easily lead to more literary reading as most contributors have books already out and/or new ones coming out. There should be no debate that there is a valid and lively literary scene.

There's a bit more to my version of the literary world than simply the Paris Review. It's worth broadening horizons. There's a world of lit mags out there, many publishing spectacular and innovative writing from new authors. That is, new authors without big publishing deals and not the same old same old.
 

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There's a bit more to my version of the literary world than simply the Paris Review. It's worth broadening horizons. There's a world of lit mags out there, many publishing spectacular and innovative writing from new authors. That is, new authors without big publishing deals and not the same old same old.

Yep. And those writers are from all over the world.

For my part, I confess to sorting out my books that were in storage, and not feeling any shame at all for getting rid of books by Henry James or D. H. Lawrence.
 

gettingby

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Oh come now, I think it's a bit more than that. That's only the most visible aspect - it's not the entire scene. And the Paris Review is excellent, but it's not the only litmag around.

I never said it was the only one around. I subscribe to a dozen of so literary mags. I never said it stops at The Paris Review. There are hundreds of them. I was just giving one example. But the scene is made up of who's publishing where, what else is coming out and, of course, the prizes. There is an entire scene with readings and launch parties and book tours and panels. I look toward fiction in the New Yorker, TPR, and many others to get a feel for today's scene. But there is a literary scene. People on AW seem to act like I'm crazy every time I mention that there is a literary scene going on right now. No one has to be a part of it or get to know it if they don't want. But that doesn't mean it's not there.

As far who I think is hot right now. Ann Beatie, Roddy Doyle, Adam Johnson (recently won an award), Jodi Angel, Malon James... many more. Ann Beatie has published in The New Yorker a ton. I have a book that is just her New Yorker stories and it's a pretty thick book. I feel like there are a bunch of Johnsons besides Adam. Dennis Johnson -- Everyone at school was reading or read his stuff. Dana Johnson is in the spring issue of The Paris Review with another great story. I loved it. Roddy Doyle appears somewhat regularly in McSweeney's Quarterly, Jodi Angel has been in Tin House, One Story and a bunch of other places. She released a new collection in recent years and it's to die for. Marlon James won the Booker for his novel A Brief History of Seven Killings. Such a great story. A big part of my life is reading and writing literary fiction. It's what I devote my time to. This is the kind of stuff I like to read. I would much rather have a thread about today's literary scene than having any sort of debate on what's literary. Read enough literary, and you will have a better sense of where you fit in it. That's all I'm saying.

By the way, I have tried to start threads to talk about today's literary scene, but they spark far less attention than this silly debate. But I am happy to start another thread and try again if there are people around who want to talk about it.
 

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By the way, I have tried to start threads to talk about today's literary scene, but they spark far less attention than this silly debate. But I am happy to start another thread and try again if there are people around who want to talk about it.

Perhaps that's because you seem to think there's a single "literary scene."

There isn't.

There are multiple "scenes."
 

mccardey

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By the way, I have tried to start threads to talk about today's literary scene, but they spark far less attention than this silly debate. But I am happy to start another thread and try again if there are people around who want to talk about it.
:flag:
 

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I don't want a safe swim-inside-the-stinger-net literary scene of established writers. I want a literary scene that gives me an adrenaline rush.
 

gettingby

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Perhaps that's because you seem to think there's a single "literary scene."

There isn't.

There are multiple "scenes."

What? You can break it up if you want, but I see the scene as a whole which does go beyond fiction and the journals. I have no idea what "multiple scenes" you are talking about? Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea that there is a literary scene? I feel sorry for anyone who dismisses this. But it's there for anyone who is interested and wants to be a part of it.
 

gettingby

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I don't want a safe swim-inside-the-stinger-net literary scene of established writers. I want a literary scene that gives me an adrenaline rush.

I don't understand what you are saying. But I do get a rush reading great literary works. And most of the time, established literary writers are established for good reason. They're really good. Sorry if that doesn't give you an adrenaline rush, but we are talking about reading here not skydiving.
 

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I don't understand what you are saying. But I do get a rush reading great literary works. And most of the time, established literary writers are established for good reason. They're really good. Sorry if that doesn't give you an adrenaline rush, but we are talking about reading here not skydiving.

Metaphors don't always translate, but it's nothing to do with skydiving.

Translated: If a literary scene is all about safe, approved selections, where's the exhilaration of discovering new voices?
 

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What? You can break it up if you want, but I see the scene as a whole which does go beyond fiction and the journals. I have no idea what "multiple scenes" you are talking about? Why is it so hard for people to accept the idea that there is a literary scene? I feel sorry for anyone who dismisses this. But it's there for anyone who is interested and wants to be a part of it.

Save your sorrow. We're doing fine.

Thing is there is no monocultural "literary scene" and in insisting there is, you're missing out on a lot of authors and their writing.

Also I think that a writer has to make a decision about whether they are writing to join a "literary scene" or to create stories.
 
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