We need some new threads in here... So, dead body.

rfitzwilly63

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
Messages
57
Reaction score
4
Location
Eastern Oregon
How do you guys feel about the time of death estimates that are so prevalent (and useful?) in our genre? Do you use it? I kind of know that some of the techniques authors (and producers) use are not accurate. But, I feel like I am writing entertainment, not true-crime type stuff. As long as it is within the degree of suspension of disbelief that my readers are willing to put up with, I am not above writing some less than factual scenes. Do you agree?
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,310
I don't write this genre but I have to say that it seriously annoys me when I catch a significant factual error in a novel or TV show. So I'd say that it will make you lose credibility with readers who know better and take them out of the story. How many readers that would be, I don't know, but why not at least seriously try to get the facts straight, especially when it's something that isn't that hard to find out?

ETA: I did deliberately let a factual error go on a story once that I can think of. It had to do with what would destroy diamonds or cubic zirconia. I couldn't change it without ruining my story so I just left it and no one said anything. Er, not to me anyway. :)
 
Last edited:

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
But it's such a well-known trope that I think most MTS reader barely think about it. Unless the TOD is a major plot point with lots of things dependent on it, it doesn't matter that much.
 

pdichellis

Murder! You want fries with that?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
553
Reaction score
63
Location
California, small beach city
Website
murderandfries.wordpress.com
My view: Anything investigators can use to establish a timeline is important in a mystery, and I believe readers expect forensics to play a role somewhere in a murder investigation. But detailed forensics are so common on TV that it's tough to write them in a compelling way. (At least for me!) So I provide forensic results for clues (example: Rigor mortis/lividity/decomp indicated etc., etc.). But I avoid diving into details, test procedures, and so forth. That said, I write short mysteries and realize novelists might have a different take.
 
Last edited:

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
1,737
Reaction score
426
Location
Haunted Louisiana
It can depend upon the readers, or your target market. If they generally don't require or expect accurate forensic details, you can craft your tale with some vague explanation for an estimated TOD. However, if your readership is far more savvy or experienced within the genre, you are well advised to dig deeper and provide more articulated (and accurate) forensic support for a TOD.

I write police procedurals and enjoy a modest readership within the LE and legal communities. I strive to craft every detail in as accurate a fashion as possible--anything short of that is glaringly unacceptable and can easily derail the tale with that audience. Believe me--my beta readers are not the least bit shy in ferreting out and exposing a flaw or weakness in a draft.

Now I'm trying something different, a genre mash-up of a police procedural and a science fantasy that I've been playing with for over a decade. I can enjoy considerable leeway within the science fantasy aspect (thanks to the current state of theoretical physics), but the beta readers are adamant that I get the LE/legal procedures and forensics right. Since this is a series, there are few constraints in offering accurate depictions of relative forensics. Of course, reader comprehension must be a consideration; and simultaneously, the pace not allowed to lag.

The point is simple; determine for whom your story is intended and craft the tale accordingly. If you deem accurate details are required for your readership, then by all means provide them. Best of Luck!
 
Last edited:

GailD

Still chasing plot bunnies.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
12,128
Reaction score
4,691
Location
Somerset East, South Africa
I think time of death is very important in a mystery since this is a starting point, in terms of establishing where persons of interest were at the time and what they were doing etc. - to eliminate or include them as suspects. Time of death may not be so important in a thriller, perhaps. I think it depends on what type of book you're writing.
 
Last edited:

mewellsmfu

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
488
Reaction score
194
I'm in the camp that wants a novel to reflect accuracy. Whenever I find a mistake -- usually one that could have been avoided with a little research (and by that I don't mean just looking something up on the net because there's a lot of bad info out there, too) -- I lose respect for the writer and rarely, if ever buy that person's work again. In fact, I remember those authors in a very negative sense. When someone reads my work, I want it right. And I'm not in favor of fudging for the sake of drama. If the story doesn't have enough drama on its own, don't fake the science to get it there.
 

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
5,359
Reaction score
1,661
Location
Berkshire, UK
Website
soundcloud.com
I'm afraid forensics TV shows have "ruined" TOD for me. If I see anything more precise than "that calendar day", even with a fully justified reason, it annoys me, because (1) I know that a lot of the "science" shown on TV is flaky at best, or made-up at worst, but (2) I am not scientifically literate to know which stuff is embellished and which is real. So I assume it's all hand-wavy crap and the writers are playing hard and fast with facts.

This is a shame, because there are real advances that you could describe as a writer, but I'm so jaded from decades of TV that I'm neither impressed nor convinced by them.*

What still works for me, every time, is where the forensics provide a window that the detectives then narrow down through other proof. So where forensics provides evidence, but not answers.



* I should note for the record that I thoroughly enjoy/ed many series of CSI+friends, Silent Witness, Waking The Dead, etc. all of which feature varying degrees of shonky forensics.
 

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
3,539
Reaction score
429
Location
Floral City, FL
How do you guys feel about the time of death estimates that are so prevalent (and useful?) in our genre? Do you use it?

This depends on the story. A police procedural, for example, should likely be pretty spot on as far as the actual forensic techniques. A cozy mystery could be a lot more loose.

But let's face it, TOD has gotten pretty accurate in the last twenty years. And, unless your story deals with needing a pretty exact time of death, normal ranges should work fine. Plus, there are plenty of mitigating factors you can play with to alter a TOD, even after the fact.

TOD isn't just done with forensics either. Witness A sees Victim in WalMart at 10:15 PM, confirmed by security cameras. Witness B finds body on street corner at 11:05 PM, matching the 911 call time and police arriving six minutes after the call is received. Nobody is waiting for forensics or a medical examiner to determine TOD, it was sometime in a 45 minute period, give or take a few.

Jeff
 

CL Polk

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
428
Reaction score
70
Location
Canada
I think you should know your stuff, and if you're using forensic sciences to estimate time of death, you ought to use the most popular practices of the time your story is set in.

Yeah, that means hours of research. I know. But you need to do it.
 

chloecomplains

Pinkamena Diane Pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
144
Reaction score
15
Location
Atlanta
You know, I always used to be in the fact camp, and then I dated a detective. Not that I expected policework to be as exciting as it is on TV, but I was still shocked to find out how boring, tedious, and unsatisfying it is. Between the mountains of paperwork, the drag of waiting of test results that are usually pointless and red tape that keeps you from doing your job efficiently, and the abysmal success rate, it's pretty rough. If it can be spruced up with a little fakey science, go for it. There's a reason there aren't a whole lot of shows about dentists.
 

noirdood

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
238
Reaction score
15
Location
California desert
Some of the treasured elements of crime detection are hooey. Most crime scenes reveal fingerprint smudges, partial fingerprints and corrupted fingerprints. But the general public thinks fingerprint evidence is gospel. A guy in California was jailed for robbing a bank he had never been inside. And 33 witnesses swore in court he was miles away at the exact time of the robbery. Years later a corrupt Sheriff's deputy revealed he had lifted the guy's fingerprint from a drinking glass and deposited it on the glass on the teller's window. Easy to do with Scotch tape.
 

Sherlock

Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Messages
18
Reaction score
2
I think that the crime scene shows make people expect to see something about forensic evidence if that is important to what you are writing. I think that research is very important and would tend to make you seen as a more serious writer to those who work in the field and those diehard fans who are looking for details. If you want a little subterfuge, what about the bad guy using techniques to mess with the TOD? I am thinking about things like turning up the heat where the body is lying, wrapping it in plastic, freezing it and then reappearing it. There are lots of things you could do if you aren't comfortable with the research about TOD that might turn it to your advantage. Hope this helps.

Sherlock
 

LuckyStar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
51
Reaction score
7
Some of the crime shows on these days are just silly. They have over the top computer and all kinds of futuristic equipment most departments do not have. And the time frame of solving the crimes are unrealistic.

When writing a novel, I like to have the facts I'm presenting at least make some sense.

If the time of death doesn't add up, I would leave time of death out.
 

AnthonyDavid11

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
2
As long as it's not glaringly obvious, it can work. Readers know they are reading fiction after all. However, if you can get it as close to reality as possible and stay within the framework of your novel, you'll get more respect. When I read something and then research and find it inaccurate, it doesn't make me trash the book, but I do shake my head and chuckle. So I'd recommend doing some research and don't worry. It usually doesn't take that long to find out how right or wrong you are.