Help me find my first favorite romance

Roxxsmom

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Does it? Even most of the bird species that we think of as the most devoted pair bonders are actually gettin' some strange on the side.

Biologist here, so I've read a lot about reproductive biology. Some do, most especially the ones that produce more than a single clutch in a season. There are good reasons for both genders not to put all their eggs in one genetic basket when it comes to breeding. But there's no real point in a pair of animals that only mate once per season and produce a single offspring or clutch/litter getting some on the side, obviously. A lot of it depends on how much each of the parents invest in their young and what the genetic benefits of cheating would be.

One of my favorite reproductive biology stories involves side-blotched lizards. There are three male morphs, that could be loosely analogized as "alphas, betas, and gamma/girly man lizards" or something. They're locked in a game of scissors, paper, stone (the alphas beat the betas but lose to the gammas, the betas beat the gammas but lose the the alphas, and the gammas beat the alphas but lose to the betas) when it comes to reproductive advantages and appeal to female lizards. Turns out that when one kind of male becomes too common, a different one can type can gain an edge. So in terms of mating behavior, variability within a species may be preserved by mechanisms that are like the one that produced these lizards (if not so conveniently tagged with distinct colors).

Interesting side note--males in monogamous species tend to have higher oxytocin levels than males in related species where a bond isn't formed. A question is whether individuals within a species vary in this hormone and if it might drive differences (and also be something selection could shape over generations, depending on which strategy works best in a given situation).

Natural versus cultural is always a complex issue in humans, as social institutions evolve for purposes too, but some do outlive their original function. Still, humans exhibit pretty much every mating system found in nature, so we appear to be quite flexible. Changing social situations can shift behaviors that people assumed were hard wired too, like women always preferring older, wealthier males and men always preferring younger, prettier women (turns out that this difference becomes less pronounced as income gaps between the genders shrink).

I think we all agree that people can choose to go against things that feel natural to them, though, and even be happy doing so when they don't feel forced or coerced.

And to Bunny-gypsy, don't worry about whether or not the way you are is the most common way of being or not. Many couples find long-term happiness in monogamous bonds, including many F/F couples. And couples break up for reasons that have nothing to do with cheating too, of course, and some find more happiness in subsequent relationships.

Anecdotally, most of the couples I know socially have been together for years and are remarkably free of extramarital affairs and other kinds of drama. My parents had been together 40 years when my dad passed away, and they had some hard times over the years, but neither of them had any affairs (my mom says that this is something she's really positive about with my dad, as have other friends and family members separately).

Maybe us unnatural (I prefer to think of it as less common phenotypes, though, because it's natural for members of a species to vary too) types tend to hang out with others like us, so we're often surprised to find out that we're in the minority.
 
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morngnstar

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Biologist here, so I've read a lot about reproductive biology. Some do, most especially the ones that produce more than a single clutch in a season. There's no real point in a pair of animals that only mate once per season and produce a single offspring or clutch/litter getting some on the side, obviously. A lot of it depends on how much each of the parents invest in their young.

There definitely is. A female bird can mate sexually with a more physically fit male, while nesting with a male who's a better workmate and provider. Sorry to be crass, but it's the same as a woman who marries a rich guy and screws a hot athlete. And of course, for the males, the benefit of getting with more than one female is obvious. He can father more than one clutch per season, even if they can't. I'm not a biologist, I just watch those shows on TV, and I'm pretty sure I saw these things on one of them.

Also, sex isn't all about reproduction. Otherwise why would gay sex exist?

And here's another reason I just made up. Perhaps a normally monogamous animal (bird for example) would mate outside its pair as a backup bond ... to get a foot in the door ahead of time in case their mate dies prematurely.

I think we all agree that people can choose to go against things that feel natural to them, though, and even be happy doing so when they don't feel forced or coerced.

Definitely. And I'd go so far as to say they should do so. That's part of what makes us human. Otherwise we're just animals.
 

Latina Bunny

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If it makes you feel any better, this is not scientific but just anecdotal impression: I think women tend to be more monogamous than men. Which by induction should give relationships between two women the highest rate of monogamy. I certainly get the impression that promiscuity is above average in gay men.

Also, being mostly monogamous is quite common, unnatural as it may be.

It's because we girls gots the feelz! :p You know, the cheeeesy, sappy, feeeeeeelings and all that, hehe. XD (I wonder if it's cultural or social conditioning? Hmm... Is that why many Romances with monogamous HEA are written and read by women?)

And to Bunny-gypsy, don't worry about whether or not the way you are is the most common way of being or not. Many couples find long-term happiness in monogamous bonds, including many F/F couples. And couples break up for reasons that have nothing to do with cheating too, of course, and some find more happiness in subsequent relationships.

Anecdotally, most of the couples I know socially have been together for years and are remarkably free of extramarital affairs and other kinds of drama. My parents had been together 40 years when my dad passed away, and they had some hard times over the years, but neither of them had any affairs (my mom says that this is something she's really positive about with my dad, as have other friends and family members separately).

For sure, I understand that people break up for reasons besides cheating (like losing the spark, or not loving anymore, or living arrangements not working out, etc). I would like my lover, life partner, girlfriend, or whomever, to be happy than to stay miserable in the relationship.

I would rather break up than for her to be miserable, or if she feels like she needs something more (like maybe a poly relationship, etc). She would be a person, a human being, with needs and wants of her own, and that's totally cool. ^_^

In my heart, I strongly believe that people should pursue what makes them happy. If that involves a mutual break up, that's fine. :) (It's the lying and cheating I would have the biggest issue with.) I would like for her to find someone who would make her happy or to move on and find her happiness, and we can mutually and peacefully go our own seperate ways to find someone else. :)

Blech. That sounds absolutely sappy. :0 *gags* But is how I feels, lol. :p
 

morngnstar

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Update on the actual point of the thread (by the way I don't mind the derails, though). I downloaded some samples of several of the suggested books, and I liked The Duchess War and A Precious Jewel pretty well, but I couldn't make up my mind which to buy. In the end I went with this one:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...romance-featuring-cute-dogs-and-vicious-swans

It's quite a page turner and I'm really liking the characters. Why is it AWers write better romances than the big name authors? This is not the first time or the only author I've experienced this with.
 

Roxxsmom

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There definitely is. A female bird can mate sexually with a more physically fit male, while nesting with a male who's a better workmate and provider.

I'm thinking of birds like those penguins where the males wait on the beach for their mates to show up each year, and they pair off and commence mating right away, and this results in one egg and chick. There's not a lot of time for them to cheat in that situation. Albatrosses do something similar. Wolves also tend to stick together until one of the pair dies.

Contrast this with some other kinds of birds, who may clutch more than once per season and might even have more than one male fathering chicks in the same clutch, even if they're raising young together (and consider that with pair bonding animals, there aren't any bordellos for the straying males to go to when they want to spread their seed. They're always doing it with a female mated to someone else who is, um, "cuckolding" her mate in turn).

Also, sex isn't all about reproduction. Otherwise why would gay sex exist?

Every species is different. Sex for other purposes (sharing of resources, reinforcement of the pair bond, social cohesion, and relieving tension) are things for many species besides humans, but again, this varies. I don't know that albatrosses, which only produce one chick every other year and always come back to the same mate, would benefit from extra sex the same way as a group-living species might. There are other animals where sexual play, and even pair bonds, can form between two members of the same sex. Lots of hypotheses about why it happens, but they tend to be hard to test.

There's also this system, though it's rare. Some primates and African hunting dogs also have been known to exhibit polyandry. Also, the eusocial mole rats, of course (only one fertile female per colony).

I think people in general will tend to defend their own personal inclinations or leanings as natural and ones that are not their preference as unnatural, but there's no reason why people can't naturally fall across an entire spectrum. Variability between individuals within a species or social group can be beneficial.

Sorry for the derails, but to get it back to romance, I've enjoyed a number of nonhuman romantic arcs in SF. The chimp marriage group in Brin's The Uplift War was sweet. I liked the Hani in Cherryh's Compact Space books too.

OMG someone write a mole rat SF story!

I'm starting The Heiress Effect, and I'm enjoying the writing so far. I like that the FMC's goal is to scare suitors off by being gauche.
 
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edutton

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Anecdotally, most of the couples I know socially have been together for years and are remarkably free of extramarital affairs and other kinds of drama. My parents had been together 40 years when my dad passed away, and they had some hard times over the years, but neither of them had any affairs (my mom says that this is something she's really positive about with my dad, as have other friends and family members separately).

Maybe us unnatural (I prefer to think of it as less common phenotypes, though, because it's natural for members of a species to vary too) types tend to hang out with others like us, so we're often surprised to find out that we're in the minority.
Same here! We're having our 21st anniversary this weekend, and most of our close friends are similarly long-partnered, whether same- or opposite-sex. And most of us have been in this same circle of friends for almost as long, so stability is definitely possible. Of course, most of us are well into middle age, so that probably plays a role as well...
 

Roxxsmom

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I've finished The Heiress Effect and Unclaimed by Courtney Milan. I enjoyed both of them. Some thoughts.

The Heiress effect took place during the time when the (I think) Voting Reform Bill of 1884 was being debated in England. This was the bill that relaxed property requirements and increased the number of adult males who could vote, particularly in rural areas. So there's some history there.

One thing I had some mixed feelings about was that the voice and tone of the piece felt a bit off for something in the Victorian era. I'm not an expert on the mores of the time, but some things didn't quite hang together for me. The legalities and motivations of her uncle (the story's antagonist) didn't make sense to me. Why was he so keen to force all these medical treatments on her sister when there was no profit in it for him?

There were also some places where the language and cultural viewpoint felt off. I could be wrong, for instance, but even if "F*** you" was in the lexicon used by gentlemen of that era, I can't believe one would ever say that to a countess, much less in public, without it causing a major scandal. Gentlemen weren't even supposed to use slang terms like "deuced" or "blasted" in front of ladies back then, were they?

I felt this disconnect from the antagonist's motives or the sensibilities of the era less with Unclaimed (part of a different series by the author, but also set in the late Victorian era, I think).

The thing I tend to notice with romances is that things tend to fall into place a bit too neatly in the end (like the protagonist not only gets to be with their love, but their tarnished reputation is saved, he's spared from an onerous political appointment, and she's reconciled with her family, and she's managed to put down the bad guy so he'll never trouble her again but she didn't have to actually kill him to do it), but of course that's an element of a self-contained HEA. I'm so used to reading fantasy. With fantasy, even if there's a strong romantic element in the story, there's generally a fly of some kind in the ointment at the end, or some major thing the character had to give up to be with their love.

It's interesting to see the differences.
 

morngnstar

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The thing I tend to notice with romances is that things tend to fall into place a bit too neatly in the end, but of course that's an element of a self-contained HEA. I'm so used to reading fantasy. With fantasy, even if there's a strong romantic element in the story, there's generally a fly of some kind in the ointment at the end, or some major thing the character had to give up to be with their love.

I'm coming close to (re-) writing my ending. Last time everybody got everything they wanted. This time I've decided they don't get everything they want, but they might just find, they get what they need. In other words, they get something they didn't know they wanted, but is actually better than what they thought they wanted.
 

Latina Bunny

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The thing I tend to notice with romances is that things tend to fall into place a bit too neatly in the end, but of course that's an element of a self-contained HEA. I'm so used to reading fantasy. With fantasy, even if there's a strong romantic element in the story, there's generally a fly of some kind in the ointment at the end, or some major thing the character had to give up to be with their love.

It's interesting to see the differences.

Huh. If that's true....Maybe that's another reason why I cannot usually get into most adult (non-Romance) SFF stuff...

Because I usually enjoy the neatly tied up HEA endings of many traditional/mainstream or gentler Romances, (and nice endings in light hearted MG stuff). :) It's part of the "fantasy"/escapism of some traditional, mainstream Romances, particularly those with traditional HEA endings.*

The things you're talking could possibly put a damper on the "happily ever after" aspect (for some of us Romance readers).

*Of course, not all Romances are like this, and there are always exceptions. :)
 
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Marian Perera

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There were also some places where the language and cultural viewpoint felt off.

I've noticed that while I enjoy Milan's historicals one or two at a time, if I go on a reading streak, the stories give me an anachronistic vibe. The good characters wholeheartedly accept and support people of different races, religions, orientations, abilities, etc. The diversity is great, and it's much better than a story populated with bigots, but it does remind me that this is a Milan historical. As opposed to being so completely immersed in the story that I forget I'm reading.

The thing I tend to notice with romances is that things tend to fall into place a bit too neatly in the end

I'm guessing it would feel a bit unsatisfying (for romance readers, anyway) if the story ended with the hero and heroine in love and committed to each other, but facing significant problems such as joblessness or public ostracism. Probably the reason A Precious Jewel didn't end with Gerald trying to introduce his ex-prostitute wife into society. There's even a tiny epilogue in Simple Jess where one of the heroine's suitors, a gay man who eventually realizes he can't keep living a lie and therefore leaves the community, is shown to be happy where he finally ends up. One reason I like The Countess Conspiracy is because the heroine is unable to carry a pregnancy to term, and there's no indication at all in the story that being happily married to the hero changes this for her. It strikes the right balance - realistic without being so sad it colors the ending.
 

Roxxsmom

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I noticed this with Unclaimed too: the character very possibly not being able to become pregnant, but she and her love were fine with adopting some orphans if they wanted kids. That's so rare in historical romances, as they nearly always end with the woman pregnant or newly delivered of a child. The idea that infertile people can have HEAs, or that some women might not even want kids as part of a HEA, is rarely addressed.

Yeah the definition of a happy or optimistic ending is definitely different between pure romance and fiction in other genres that sometimes have important romantic arcs and happy endings that might involve more compromises (like both partners losing their position in society to be together). I'm used to SF and F "happy endings" that are really snapshots in time with no guarantee that things won't be stressful again in the future (which makes sense in a genre where series featuring the same protagonists are more common than in romances). It's not right or wrong, just different.
 

Marian Perera

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The idea that infertile people can have HEAs, or that some women might not even want kids as part of a HEA, is rarely addressed.

My first fantasy romance (Before the Storm) has a heroine who's infertile. She makes this clear to the man who falls in love with her, because he's an aristocrat in a land inspired by Victorian England. She gets a happy ending anyway. :)
 

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On the Island by Tracey Garvis-Graves was such a wonderful book with really great characters. But I have to say the most amazing thing I've ever read was the screenplay for Passengers by Jon Spaihts. It's unbelievably amazing. Can't wait for the movie to come out at the end of this year.
 

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The Sharing Knife, though a fantasy adventure genre is a beautifully written romance by Louise McMaster Bujold. So is her Paladin of Souls.

I read Kathleen Woodiwiss in my teens. The Wolf and the Dove among others. Hopefully WLCT so I am sure a rose in winter is also a good one.

Yet there are well written romances in other genres besides romance.

Good luck.

Caroline J. Thibeaux