LGBT

MDSchafer said:

I think there's a lack of honesty in the YA genre, and fiction as a whole when it comes to LGBT characters, and their portrayal. There is a lot of inclusion for inclusion's sake, which is nice in a Star Trek sort of way, but there still aren't a lot of LGBT lead characters written by LGBT authors. There's a clearly staked out corner for LGBT characters and stories, but there haven't been, and likely won't be, a blockbuster series with a LGBT lead.

Would the Hunger Games, Divergent, Maze Runner have been international hits if the leads were a gay boy in a love triangle with two there guys? Probably not. If we're honest they'd be modest selling series with a small fan base, at most. If we're honest, there's a box you can put GLBT characters into if you want to have best seller success, and it's nice to be included, but as a trend, I home we've run our course as best friends, sidekicks and secondary characters.


Rant:::: AND REALLY THE MAZE RUNNER? NO GAY CHARACTERS IN THE MAZE RUNNER? If there ever was a concept that screamed for a gay love triangle it was a place with no adults, no girls, no memories of any kind which would conceivably would include any sort of stigma towards same sex coupling, and a bunch of guys in their late teens. Like seriously? Something that implausible doesn't even have two guys who shacked up together? Seriously? Seriously? Although I'm sure there's a bunch of Alby/Thomas/Newt slash fiction somewhere on the web. ::::: Rant.

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I agree with all this, MD. You're right on the money.

And as for THE MAZE RUNNER... James Dashner is Mormon. You're right, it would have fit right in, but I don't think there was any way the author was going to include it.

Becca C. said:

I agree with all this, MD. You're right on the money.

And as for THE MAZE RUNNER... James Dashner is Mormon. You're right, it would have fit right in, but I don't think there was any way the author was going to include it.

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You know where it also would've fit? Twilight. Jake and Edward were better characters and played off each other really well. Neither were those weird doormats-but-not that Bella was. I hated how ineffectual she was as a character, because I was way use to strong female leads already at the time. I'm still waiting for a YA PNR series that takes a similar concept to Twlight and does the M/M or F/F thing with it.

MDSchafer said:

I think there's a lack of honesty in the YA genre, and fiction as a whole when it comes to LGBT characters, and their portrayal. There is a lot of inclusion for inclusion's sake, which is nice in a Star Trek sort of way, but there still aren't a lot of LGBT lead characters written by LGBT authors. There's a clearly staked out corner for LGBT characters and stories, but there haven't been, and likely won't be, a blockbuster series with a LGBT lead.

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Do you mean honesty as in the books aren't portraying the world as it is (ie: that it has LGBTQ people in it) or honesty as in the characters themselves not being honest portrayals? Just curious!

I agree we need a lot more #ownvoices in LGBTQIA (and other minority groups). I remembered that this list was put together and went digging for it, for anyone who is interested. LGBTQIA books written by people who ID as LGBTQIA: https://dailydahlia.wordpress.com/w...by-and-about-people-who-identify-as-lgbtqiap/ I don't think it's a complete list, but it's a good start for anyone interested in more #ownvoices books.

I'm not so sure we'll never have a LGBTQIA lead in a blockbuster book. I think it might be some years away still, and there are always more uphill battles with diverse books, but maybe I'm being a optimist in thinking we'll get there eventually. The 100 TV show, for instance, has a bisexual leading lady (though that show is going through a lot of very valid criticism with how they're treating their LGBTQIA characters lately) and it's doing well.

MDSchafer said:

I think there's a lack of honesty in the YA genre, and fiction as a whole when it comes to LGBT characters, and their portrayal. There is a lot of inclusion for inclusion's sake, which is nice in a Star Trek sort of way, but there still aren't a lot of LGBT lead characters written by LGBT authors. There's a clearly staked out corner for LGBT characters and stories, but there haven't been, and likely won't be, a blockbuster series with a LGBT lead.

Would the Hunger Games, Divergent, Maze Runner have been international hits if the leads were a gay boy in a love triangle with two there guys? Probably not. If we're honest they'd be modest selling series with a small fan base, at most. If we're honest, there's a box you can put GLBT characters into if you want to have best seller success, and it's nice to be included, but as a trend, I home we've run our course as best friends, sidekicks and secondary characters.

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This. +1

I'm noticing that LGBT are usually not main characters, too, in major franchises or in some famous SFF stuff.

I would hear people suggest (SFF) titles that have LGBT characters, but either 1) The books are old or old-ish, 2) the stories are by niche publishers for a niche category, or 3) The LGBT characters are sidekicks or secondary characters, like family members or friends, etc.

(Oh, and sometimes the LGBT characters are written by non-LGBT writers. Sometimes, if the writer didn't research or is not saavy, this can lead to some stereotyping or unintentional use of cliche tropes like dead lesbians/dead gays, the always "swishy" and fashion-crazed gay friend, etc.)

I feel there is still a long way to go before LGBT characters are considered "mainstream" by a large mainstream audience/public.

bunny-gypsy said:

This. +1

I'm noticing that LGBT are usually not main characters, too, in major franchises or in some famous SFF stuff.

I would hear people suggest (SFF) titles that have LGBT characters, but either 1) The books are old or old-ish, 2) the stories are by niche publishers for a niche category, or 3) The LGBT characters are sidekicks or secondary characters, like family members or friends, etc.

(Oh, and sometimes the LGBT characters are written by non-LGBT writers. Sometimes, if the writer didn't research or is not saavy, this can lead to some stereotyping or unintentional use of cliche tropes like dead lesbians/dead gays, the always "swishy" and fashion-crazed gay friend, etc.)

I feel there is still a long way to go before LGBT characters are considered "mainstream" by a large mainstream audience/public.

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I agree whole-heartedly. Most mainstream books I've read had LGBT characters but they were either minor or supporting characters. Society is more accepting regarding the LGBT community but it's going to take some time before we have a gay or lesbian MC in a mainstream work.

On a side note, I do believe it's possible. Look at Legend of Korra (although I know it isn't a book but still), although the evidence was in the show as it progressed I didn't think they'd make Korra and Asami a couple at the end. Though the creators revealed this in the final close, I felt like it was a good step forward. We need more of that.

I imagine as long as there are LGBT persons, there will be a demand for characters with such traits. people enjoy cheering for a protag to which they can relate.

I feel like it's the same thing with female protags or POC's. It's not about a sudden upswing in marketability; it's about acknowledging a divide between population and representation. There are a ton of cis white male protags, and that's not a bad thing necessarily. But I think people are going to continue to want to read about people they associate with, and there's still a deficit not only for LGBTQ+ characters, but also for racially diverse characters, characters with disabilities, and any other underrepresented group.

Becca C. said:

I agree with all this, MD. You're right on the money.

And as for THE MAZE RUNNER... James Dashner is Mormon. You're right, it would have fit right in, but I don't think there was any way the author was going to include it.

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Did not know he was a Mormon, and now I regret buying one of his books and watching two of his movies.

Also, I need to not post when I'm drinking.

I think LGBT YA is on the rise, actually! I write and read LGBT YA, and I absolutely love it. I'm seeing more and more great books like DRAG TEEN, IF I WAS YOUR GIRL, WE ARE THE ANTS, and LOOK BOTH WAYS on the shelves and in libraries.

What we need is more LGBT authors getting published, and of course, more LGBT love stories and teen romances. I'd also love to continue to see novels with characters who identify as queer, but that isn't the crux of their story or arc.

MDSchafer said:

Did not know he was a Mormon, and now I regret buying one of his books and watching two of his movies.

Also, I need to not post when I'm drinking.

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And I Darken by Kiersten White is a great upcoming YA Fantasy with a gay protag, by a Mormon author. It happens (Signed, an Orthodox Jewish author of f/f YA and NA)

I'm not saying there's "enough," which would be meaningless, but...I also think there's a lot more than people realize there is, in every genre of YA. This is the YA page of my website, LGBTQReads, and this isn't by any stretch a master list; only books I or a good friend recommends: https://lgbtqreads.com/young-adult/ Most of it is by authors who ID either privately or publicly as at least one of letter of LGBTQAP, and that which isn't is still great in my un-bi-ased opinion. #seewhatididthere

Cassie Clare has some LGBT pairings, but I think the only way you're going to get one to go truly mainstream is by virtue of book 2 or book 3 in a blockbuster series where a major character's love interest becomes the "big twist" at the end.

Maybe book 1, the hero/heroine is out to save the girl/boy presumed to be their S.O., but then you find out they're more of a platonic pair or secret siblings and would just go to extreme lengths to protect their friend. Then in book 2 or book 3 you meet the real S.O. and everyone gets to be shocked about it. There's a chance for not only a LGBT story there, but also a solid friendship between a guy and a girl that doesn't have to result in romantic attachment. That's something that's seriously lacking in YA fiction, too.

DahlELama said:

And I Darken by Kiersten White is a great upcoming YA Fantasy with a gay protag, by a Mormon author. It happens (Signed, an Orthodox Jewish author of f/f YA and NA)

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I knew Kiersten was Mormon and I've heard of this book, but did not know the MC was gay! Very cool. I'll have to check it out!

Becca C. said:

I knew Kiersten was Mormon and I've heard of this book, but did not know the MC was gay! Very cool. I'll have to check it out!

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It's a retelling of the life of Vlad the Impaler as Lada, a girl. Historic rumor is that Vlad's brother Radu (the so-called handsome one) and one of the Ottoman Sultan's sons had a thing for each other. So you've got a brother and sister both entangled with feelings for the same guy.

Since this last rant I've so wanted to write a SF story where these teenage boys come out of cryosleep on a way, way off-course space ship and there's no adults and no girls so the guys try to solve their problems while trying to cope with the idea that no girls, and likely never will be.

Setting aside the whole "people are not trends" issue (because yeah, it's really that simple...or should be), I don't know that agents are the major roadblock here.

Yes, a lot more agents *are* specifically seeking LGBTQIA+ characters and authors, and I don't expect many of them to drop out of that game at this point. Not the ones who are actually doing good work selling these stories because Wow It Is Super Not Easy And They Already Know That. I'm not seeing good agents signing queer writers for a meal ticket, because they aren't that naive. Think about how hard it is to sell a book in the first place. Think about how hard it is to sell YA in a marketplace where everybody and their dog is writing YA. Think about what happens to your sub list when you need to find an editor who will enthusiastically and competently take on a queer title. Think about the odds of finding not only the right person with the right taste, but who also has the right job at the moment -- publishers, much more so than agents, are answering not only to their own feelings about a manuscript, or even the market at large, but the specific mandate and character of their imprint. And that's all before the book even gets a fighting chance with acquisitions. And yeah, at any point in that whole process, somebody can dismiss it with "we already have a gay book this season."

Yeah, there are some agents who've made bank repping queer work. The big gay books that get used as the "we already have..." examples. But I doubt even those agents were expecting that outcome. Because they most definitely know, better than anybody, how many of those books it's just not happening for.

I think also it is good to note that there can and will be inherent and unintentional biases which will effect the true reality of how much LGBTQAI lit is published. There will be agents--probably a lot, actually--who say they want diverse lit but weed it out unawares of what they are doing. I think of one incident in which orchestras began doing blind auditions to try and get rid of unintentional sexism and racism but still had significantly lower numbers of women until they realized the women came in wearing heels and the people listening to the auditions heard it. Once that variable was removed, the rates of women being selected was much higher.

It is really easy to look at the market now and see that LGBTQAI characters are not dominating by any stretch of the imagination. It probably is similar to that concept, though, of how if women talk only 30% of the time in classroom discussions it's seen they're dominating the discussions--seeing even a few LGBTQAI books in the shelves seems so foreign that it seems like a lot when really, especially to LGBTQAI people, it's sadly little.

jtrylch13 said:

My first problem here is calling it a trend. Diversity is not a trend, but rather showing life as it really is, i.e. not all white and straight. It is my sincere hope that the publishing industry will not treat diversity in any form as a "trend". And even though there are a lot of agents looking for LGBT among other forms of diversity, getting it published is still slow going. It's getting better, but I often have to seek out novels with diversity. And there are still publishers saying things like, "We already have a black girl (or Asian or LGBT) book for this year, so no thanks." So no, I don't think we've reached a peak of LGBT stories coming out, but I do have concerns about the publishing industry treating it like a trend. We as writers and readers need to continue the push so we no longer have to wonder if we will be getting books with diverse characters and especially Own Voice stories, but rather books will continue to be published that reflect just how diverse our population is. Basically, I want to get to the point where there are no "diverse books", there's just books, and we don't have to pressure the publishing industry to reflect us properly. Pipe dream, I know, but that's what I hope for.

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Exactly. I see a lot of publishers acting like they have some quote or cap on how many ~diverse~ stories they're willing to accept, and I'm still seeing writers come out and talk about publishers trying to get them to remove LGBT characters or even erasing them during edits without the authors permission. I think we're definitely seeing an uptake in books with queer characters published, mainly because of uphill battles still being fought in the publishing community, but publishing is still very much a bastion of casual homophobia and racism, and I don't see that changing drastically in the next few years without huge intervention and work.

I think the difference between how publishers and readers think is that for readers, you hear 'diverse' in regards to a book and know that's kind of shorthand for "this author doesn't just spend 400 pages pretending people of color and queer folk don't exist" whereas publishers are still hesitant to believe that's what readers want. They're holding up outdated norms that don't generally reflect book buyers - especially teen book buyers.

I think teens in particular not only are open to that diversity in their work, but they actively look for it. I know I look for it when pursuing reading material. The more that continues to happen, the more publishers will start to wake up, but I think we've generally been making good progress.

It helps that bigger, mainstream names like Cassandra Clare, Amanda Hocking, and Rainbow Rowell have all been fairly adamant about including queer characters in a lot of their work. I think it paves the way for authors with less sway or voice with their publishers to be able to follow that path, too.

I think LGBTQ in literature can be separated into different categories though...

I mean, there's token diversity, where there is a character of every minority group in a large cast. In these cases, while it's nice characters are not default-cis... the impact on story is superficial.

There are people who write diversity with a little more research, either because they believe in and want to promote diversity, or sometimes because they just like it. Many women, for example, tend to write and read LGBTQ even when they start off. I think here (sometimes) are the diverse protagonists, love interests. Here is where they are not treated as "exotic other" but as heroes and heroines and just people.

And best of all, is the current push towards own voices. Where we have authors write from a position of authority. Not to diminish the accomplishments of writers who prioritize diversity (my last finished manuscript is about a gay Sri-Lankan teen in a sci-fi, and I'm Asian), but these, I think, will be the conversations on diversity that last.

Authors approach diversity from different perspectives--all with the best intentions, I believe. I think token diversity is undoubtedly a trend, and as that decreases we will see more of the latter two. The latter two will (we all hope) keep growing.