Landing on Moon from L1?

Laer Carroll

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I'm working on a book which takes place on and in a Moon base. The main character lives in a space station positioned at the L1 point a sixth of the way from the Moon to Earth. Early on she has to fly down to the base.

I'm Googling such a flight & so far haven't gotten any typical flight times. I know it's a long shot, but does anyone in this forum have any links I could follow to get an answer? Or HAVE an answer?
 
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themindstream

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I think you might need to find an actual scientist for the math (Hello, NASA?) but I can guess at the forces involved. It wouldn't be 1/6th less time than the Earth-Moon run because you aren't making a standing start from Earth's gravity well, so you should be able to accelerate faster. It also depends on how much your engine tech has advanced since the days of Apollo...though in theory by that reasoning, you could make up any number that seemed reasonable and get away with it.
 

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AC Clarke had a similar idea in one of his jobs. I can't remember the numbers but I think you could handwave it pretty well. He did.
 

Kjbartolotta

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Obviously the flight technicians are going to be thinking in terms of Delta-V and not time or distance, if you're MC's not the techie type I doubt she's going to be too caught up on that, though.

I'd think anything over a day would be excessive, maybe just a few hours. It depends on her ship as well, I suppose for puttering around Earth and the Lagrange points you'd not be using anything to spectacular, probably just a very ordinary ferry or passenger ship. Why not just say a day and factor in queues, docking clearance, loading, unloading. Sounds like it's make a heck of a booze cruise!
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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If you accelerate at 1G from the station for 5 minutes, you will achieve a relative speed of 2.94 kms. At that speed, you'll traverse the 75,000 km distance in about 7 hours. Deceleration at the moon and will take longer than 5 minutes because of approach and traffic control issues, but you can throw some number in there. If 7 hours is too long, double the acceleration time to halve the transit time.

This is obviously very simplified. For one thing, you also have to add a vector to go from the space station's orbital speed to the moon's orbital speed, but I doubt it's a major factor.
 

themindstream

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Sounds like it's make a heck of a booze cruise!

Unless there's artificial gravity in the ship, this is probably a very bad idea. Zero-G is rough enough on your stomach and inner ear when sober...ask the guys that have to clean up after astronaut training flights. :D

Though if you had euphorics that didn't involve nausea....no, bad brain, stop that.
 

morngnstar

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Obviously the flight technicians are going to be thinking in terms of Delta-V and not time or distance, if you're MC's not the techie type I doubt she's going to be too caught up on that, though.

Delta-V should be 0, or rather as small as you want. L1 is unstable: just a tiny nudge in the direction of the moon and the moon's gravity will do the rest. But if your nudge is real small, you drift away from L1 really slowly. So the answer is however fast you want: it just depends how much fuel you want to use.
 

Laer Carroll

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Thanks, all! You clarified my issues. So my solution was for her to accelerate at three Gs for "several" minutes to get a travel time of about two & a half hours, a compromise between how much fuel she wanted to use (as little as possible) for the amount of travel time (as short as possible).

I hope to have a gaggle of experts available once the book is done to go over the MS & give me better details. I expect to use the vague "several" in place of actual numbers a lot!
 
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Smiling Ted

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I hope to have a gaggle of experts available once the book is done to go over the MS & give me better details. I expect to use the vague "several" in place of actual numbers a lot!

There is another option. If the L1 station has a launch system of its own - some version of a railgun/EM launch system - then the ferry would be accelerated electromagnetically by the station, and would only use its own fuel to decelerate and land. That might increase acceleration and shorten transit time while saving fuel.
 

Laer Carroll

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If the L1 station has ... some version of a railgun/EM launch system ... then the ferry would ... only use its own fuel to decelerate and land.

Good point. Thanks! But as usual a gain in one area is matched by a loss in another - the old principle of conservation of mass and energy. Or: Everything costs. The fuel saved by the ferry has to be expended by the orbiter to keep it on station after it kicks away the lander and is thus pushed in the opposite direction. This is especially important at L1 since it is only a mildly stable Lagrange point, unlike L5 and L4, the "colonization" locations.

Still, it does have the advantage that you pointed out: it makes the lander lighter. And since the orbital instability of L1 is not that great, it could use something like a light sail rather than a fuel-guzzling rocket to maintain its position.

As usual I'll put the kitchen sink in the first draft of the book to make sure I've created a consistent setting, but may take out or mention in passing a lot of these details on rewrite to keep the story moving at the pace I want.
 
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dpaterso

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But as usual a gain in one area is matched by a loss in another - the old principle of conservation of mass and energy. Or: Everything costs. The fuel saved by the ferry has to be expended by the orbiter to keep it on station after it kicks away the lander and is thus pushed in the opposite direction. This is especially important at L1 since it is only a mildly stable Lagrange point, unlike L5 and L4, the "colonization" locations.
If that's what happens then that's what happens, tho' I don't get why they would design the orbiter to be some kind of launch platform when the lander could maneuver away from the orbiter using its directional thrusters (which would not ever point at the orbiter) until it's in a safe position to fire its own booster without disturbing the orbiter.

-Derek
 

Laer Carroll

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... I don't get why they would design the orbiter to be some kind of launch platform when ...
Actually Ted covered that. His approach saves on the fuel the ferry would need to use to boost into Lunar capture orbit. It speeds up the ferry so that its orbit rises from the viewpoint of the Earth. Then it has to boost more to get into a path which intersects the point on the Moon where my heroine wants to land.

Of which there are many, incidentally. This includes paths which use very little fuel, some of which use gravity assists. These include loops around the Moon and Earth which take many days. The paths that travel most directly to the landing position use the most fuel - BUT less enviro consumables.

So there are always tradeoffs. As in all engineering solutions.

And in real life solutions. Take Cinderella. She gets a luxurious life. But she has to deal with the royal family. Some of them are boring or mean. She has to wear those heavy "beautiful" dresses which cinch in her waist to literally sickening extents. Her prince is a lousy lover: wham bam thank you ma'am. She has to have babies and babies until one is a boy and thus an heir. The royal diet is ....

Well, you could keep at this. I imagine a sequel in which Cindy plots to escape being a princess & takes up a life in another country where she is much happier being a ....
 
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Smiling Ted

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Good point. Thanks! But as usual a gain in one area is matched by a loss in another - the old principle of conservation of mass and energy. Or: Everything costs. The fuel saved by the ferry has to be expended by the orbiter to keep it on station after it kicks away the lander and is thus pushed in the opposite direction. This is especially important at L1 since it is only a mildly stable Lagrange point, unlike L5 and L4, the "colonization" locations.

Since the orbiter is larger, Delta Vee is smaller, and could be corrected for with a light sail (as you suggested) or a solar-powered ion drive requiring much less reaction mass overall than the lander.
 

Laer Carroll

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Want a laugh? I wrote the first chapter in which my MC leaves Orbiter 1 and lands at Moonbase 1 and goes inside. I fine-tuned it and felt a warm fuzzy that lasted for several days.

Then I wrote a succeeding chapter where my MC steps outside of MB1 and shivers despite the warmth of her spacesuit at the desolation of the moonscape. Then she gets to work fixing the problem she was on the Moon for. I fine-tuned it too and it was really nifty. More warm fuzzies!

A weekend later I took the two chapters to dinner with a friend who is a successful SF writer. Afterward, before I and my sweetie and his family sat down to watch a movie he read them and said something like, "Really great writing. It made me feel I was right there." He paused and I knew something less complimentary was coming.

And it did. "Throw away the first chapter and you'll have a terrific opening to a maybe terrific book."

I sulked all the way through superheroes bashing each other. The next morning I woke to the realization that he was absolutely right.

I'm seven chapters further and still going strong. The just-about-perfect launch to the book is still inspiring me.