• This forum is specifically for the discussion of factual science and technology. When the topic moves to speculation, then it needs to also move to the parent forum, Science Fiction and Fantasy (SF/F).

    If the topic of a discussion becomes political, even remotely so, then it immediately does no longer belong here. Failure to comply with these simple and reasonable guidelines will result in one of the following.
    1. the thread will be moved to the appropriate forum
    2. the thread will be closed to further posts.
    3. the thread will remain, but the posts that deviate from the topic will be relocated or deleted.
    Thank you for understanding.​

Will we know extraterrestrial life when we see it?

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
10,771
Reaction score
15,242
Location
Massachusetts
Will we know extraterrestrial life when we see it?

Science News said:
...

Surely, recognizing something that is still alive, rather than dead and turned to rock, would be much simpler. But don’t bet on it, Cleland says. There may even be strange forms of life on Earth — a shadow biosphere — that people have overlooked.

One bit of evidence for shadow terrestrials is “desert varnish,” the dark stains on the sunny sides of rocks in arid areas. Odd, communal life-forms could be sucking energy from the rocks and building the varnish’s hard outer crust, Cleland suggests. Some scientists, for instance, think manganese-oxidizing bacteria or fungi might be responsible for concentrating iron and manganese oxides to create the stains. Unknown microbes may cement the metals with clay and silicate particles to produce the varnish’s shellac. Scientists have tried and failed to re-create desert varnish in the lab using fungi and bacteria.

Critics say that varnishes form too slowly — over thousands of years — to be a microbial process and that oxidizing manganese doesn’t generate enough energy to live on. Desert varnish is most likely a product of physical chemistry, they say.

But that criticism shows bias, Cleland responds. “We have an assumption that life on Earth has a pace,” she says. Shadow life may grow far more leisurely, making it hard for scientists to classify it as alive.

...

Or for authors to spin it into interesting SF. ;)

The speculation about what life might look like in drastically different environments, such as that of Saturn's moon, Titan, is interesting. I suspect ultimately, we're not going to find life in places like Titan, but I do hope we make the effort to look. It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be here on Earth to the discovery of completely alien life, no matter how primitive it was.
 
Last edited:

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
I think so. First, everybody needs to realize that by far the greatest likelihood is that we'll find microbiological life elsewhere. And the other great likelihood is that the chemistry of this life will be based on carbon and hydrogen, for obvious chemical reasons, but the molecular organization of that living system will be different from the single one we know of on planet Earth. Carbon and hydrogen can combine in such a plentitude of ways that we haven't even scratched the blemishes on the crust of the surface of them. And they can do so, as we now know, under conditions far more hostile to human existence that we not too long ago thought impossible.

Will we find such within our own solar system? That is an unanswerable question, but we will have to search. Because that's the best of what we humans do.

caw
 

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
10,771
Reaction score
15,242
Location
Massachusetts
Since we have a single anecdote to reason about (Earth), it's hard to speculate whether other life on other planets will look anything like our planet's. It certainly seems logical that carbon, hydrogen and oxygen will be the building blocks of it, but unless/until we see more examples, who knows?
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
The earliest life on Earth almost certainly came about in the absence of free oxygen. Oxygen is extremely reactive chemically, and free oxygen only has been produced as a waste-product once chlorophyll evolved to react with the energy from sunlight. Prior to that, the major source of chemical energy was likely sulfur, emitted from within the Earth by magmatic processes, as it continues to be today in places like the hydrothermal vents ("black smokers") in oceanic fault boundaries and elsewhere. Free oxygen is poisonous to anaerobic organisms, and that's why hospitals use hyperbaric oxygen chambers to fight bad infections from these nasty anaerobic bacteria. Anaerobic life based on sulfur for energy are the most likely things we'll find outside the Earth.

caw
 

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
10,771
Reaction score
15,242
Location
Massachusetts
I meant C, H and O as in hydrocarbons and water. :). You're right about the role of oxygen in the metabolism of early Earth life, of course.
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
In other places it is conceivable that the carbon might be replaced by another element from the same column of the periodic table: silicon, germanium, or tin.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
In other places it is conceivable that the carbon might be replaced by another element from the same column of the periodic table: silicon, germanium, or tin.

Not very likely. Silicon chemistry works at much higher temperatures, as in igneous magmatic systems on Earth. And it doesn't combine with hydrogen much under those conditions, but mainly with the commoner metallic elements like aluminum, iron, magnesium, calcium, sodium and potassium. Go lower that silicon in that periodic table column, and things like germanium and tin have chemistry more similar to that of silicon, and are also so much less abundant as to be unviable as bases for organic living systems. In terms of its chemical activity and the conditions under which its reactions most like to take place, carbon is unique among the elements. It's a damn good thing that star furnaces create so much of it.

caw
 

Introversion

Pie aren't squared, pie are round!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
10,771
Reaction score
15,242
Location
Massachusetts
Would Star Trek lie to us?? I think not!
 

Max Vaehling

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
1,133
Reaction score
75
Location
Bremen, Germany
Website
www.dreadfulgate.de
There's a joke I've been meaning to write in a comic: An alien embassador talks to the president's house plant, then excuses itself for the mix-up: "You earthlings all look alike to me."

For that joke to work, the alien must be so different from anything we'd recognize as a living individual that it's very difficult to depict in a comic. Which is difficult to conceive. I mean, look at life on earth. Squids. Mold. Bacteria. Even worse: Viruses.They are so weird we're not even sure they are lifeforms in the strictest sense.

My aliens owuld have to be weirder than those.
All of the examples I've seen in comics and movies have been pretty much modeled after beings we know from earth. 'Cause where els ould we pull that from? But even our homegrown biodiversity is limited.

As for alien life, the common theories divide into two main threads:

1. Life began pretty much like ours anywhere it did with amino acids and stuff and evolved from there, most likely into carbon-based life forms. (The theory that life on earth was somehow transmitted from elsewhere is in line with this approach.) In this scenario, the first organisms will probably have been pretty much like ours, but the more it branched out, the more we must have grown apart, pretty much like we earthlings did except more radically because a) no actual common ancestors, just similar ones, and b) different environments, at least in details. Still, depending on when the different paths came into effect, there may be similarities like symmetric builds and the use of limbs and eyes.

2. It already started differently. Different chemicals under different circumstances took a leap nonetheless, developing at different speeds (I hear silicon-based lifeforms would be much slower in everything), evolving into something that is not life as we know it but has certain qualities that would be classified as similar to ours by an even more alien third intelligence. These beings could be like (or unlike) anything. They might not even be made of matter. Or information.

Either way, the difficult thing would be to recognize them. If they do the things we consider lively, like reproduce and self-preserve or even grow, eat and move, that's a pretty good hint. In those cases, we can move on to the next big hurdle, recognizing if they're intelligent or not. Which is even harder to tell if we have no way of communicating. If they don't do any of those things, though, or if they evolved to be only visible in the spectrum we're not equipped to see or if they look like rocks to us ando only if you see infrared you see their movement or if they're entirely made up of smells rather than biomatter or if they're just reeeeeeally slow, one heartbeat in meillenia slow - in those cases we may have absolutely no way of knowing if the thing we're looking at is alive or not, or even if we're looking at something at all.
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
As Max pointed out, amino acids are likely to be the basis of alien life also, and we should remember that there have been amino acids detected in interstellar clouds. http://www.universetoday.com/100369/ultimate-prebiotic-molecule-found-in-interstellar-space/

I think that silicon or germanium based life could be very much like carbon based life. Remember that carbon is just a black mineral that burns fairly well. If you look at what life forms of whatever sort need to survive, then they probably would end up looking much the same as the carbon based life that we have on Earth. Then there's the matter of clays having been the forms on which amino acids could form. Maybe the clays were even closer to life than that.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm
 
Last edited:

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Remember that carbon is just a black mineral that burns fairly well.

Carbon is a hell of a lot more than that. It's the lightest element that sits smack in the middle of the periodic table, with extraordinary capacity to form compounds with other elements, in relatively cool temperature conditions. No other element has that capacity, or is even close to having it. Carbon is flanked by boron, which is rare in the universe and does not easily form compounds, and nitrogen, which is abundant, but not strongly reactive with other elements. Silicon is by a long margin more common than carbon is in the crust of the Earth; so why aren't terrestrial life forms based on silicon? You go down a row to silicon, and it is an element that forms compounds at high temperatures, and is nearly inert at lower ones. Other chemically similar elements are far too rare in the universe to be likely candidates for development of anything we'd consider a life-form.

caw
 

R.Barrows

Count the Electrons
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
368
Reaction score
51
Location
Seattle
or if they're just reeeeeeally slow, one heartbeat in millennium slow - in those cases we may have absolutely no way of knowing if the thing we're looking at is alive or not, or even if we're looking at something at all.

This reminds me of Spin. (by Robert Charles Wilson). The 'aliens' were so slow their thought processes were undetectable to us. Good book. Really bad protagonist (cosmic toy) but the premise and ending were great.