Controversy in the jury for the HWA's Bram Stoker Awards.

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kuwisdelu

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I don't think any of those situations would be good reasons to exclude someone from an awards jury.

I absolutely disagree.

Maybe a white supremacist could separate a PoC author from their work (and that's a big "maybe") but what if they are judging works with PoC characters?

No, there is every reason prejudiced bigots should not sit on awards juries.
 

ShaunHorton

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I think it should be considered case by case. What about all the other examples I mentioned?

I was really not impressed by the rather elliptical argument presented by Nick Mamatas, whom normally I like despite his politics, for why excluding/no-platforming fascists is necessary, but excluding/no-platforming Marxists would be wrong.

Yeah. I could certainly see things being handled on a case-by-case basis. As I said, I believe some people could be trusted to ignore their biases. Especially if there were people who had since renounced their affiliations.

Regarding your other examples, some will be more relevant than others. Homosexuality for example, can't be determined by an author photo, or inferred by name. I also don't know that believing homosexuality being a sin could transfer into a decision as much as one believing that anyone who doesn't share the individual's race is inferior and less generally deserving of the things people of the individual's race are.
 

kuwisdelu

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It's not just prejudice against authors specifically that's a concern.

People write characters who are PoC and LGBTQ, too.

How can you be unbiased if you think some people's stories are inherently not worth telling?
 
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Roxxsmom

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Having gone through numerous jury selection processes, and serving on a couple of them, I can assure you that any competent defense attorney would excuse potential jurors expressing any such prejudicial views immediately. In fact, in the last trial I served as a juror on, one person during jury selection expressed just such a prejudicial view (against taxi drivers, of all things), and was immediately dismissed.

caw

A jury in a court of law is a different matter. The consequences of someone having a biased juror is much more severe (could result in wrongful incarceration), and of course the attorneys on each side have a certain number of "free" dismissals of prospective jurors, and they needn't be for political reasons at all.

And to answer Amaden's question: yes, someone holding a belief (religiously founded or otherwise) that being gay or lesbian is morally unacceptable could make them less likely to enjoy a story where a character was gay or lesbian (and it wasn't presented as something with negative consequences). This person might also have trouble fairly judging any story by an openly gay or lesbian author (or a PoC if they're racist).

Whether or not a writer's organization should omit someone with a stated bias really depends on what the objectives of said organization are re their awards. If creating a welcoming environment for LGBTQ, PoC, Women and other traditionally underrepresented groups and giving them equal consideration for awards is important to the group, then it makes sense that they might want to disallow prejudiced judges. If equal consideration and representation for racist, homophobic or sexist views is also a goal of said organization, it may have an irreconcilable internal conflict.

The problem that no one wants to admit with regards to across-the-board tolerance of all views is that it's impossible to create a writer's organization where all people will feel equally comfortable and welcome. So whose comfort is more important to this organization? PoC or white supremacists?

I'm guessing that a professional Christian writer's group may want to omit non-Christians, liberal (or non Gospel/evangelical) Christians, and openly LGBTQ people from their award panels too. That's within their rights (and it's my right to not want to read such fiction, so it makes complete sense they'd never want me on one of their juries).

So, as ever, the question is which prejudices and stated biases reflect poorly on the organization and its goals?
 
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Amadan

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I absolutely disagree.

Maybe a white supremacist could separate a PoC author from their work (and that's a big "maybe") but what if they are judging works with PoC characters?

No, there is every reason prejudiced bigots should not sit on awards juries.

The "those situations" I referred to were:

If you're sitting in a jury for a criminal trial, you're judging the person, and it's reasonable for an attorney to try to exclude anyone who might theoretically have any bias whatsoever against his client. A defense attorney probably would try to exclude anyone with strong religious beliefs if his client was homosexual. And he'd probably try to exclude atheists if his client was strongly religious and that was a factor in the case. And he'd almost certainly try to exclude a Zionist Jew if his client was Palestinian, or vice versa.

So are you saying people with strong religious beliefs, atheists, Zionists, and Palestinians are all, effectively, bigots?

I am not saying I think no one should ever be disqualified from a jury because of his views. If someone openly says he thinks women can't write science fiction, I think it would be reasonable to exclude him from a jury of works that includes women SF authors. My point is that I am wary of just making blanket declarations like "no bigots allowed," since some people have rather.... broad definitions of what makes someone a bigot.
 

Amadan

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Whether or not a writer's organization should omit someone with a stated bias really depends on what the objectives of said organization are re their awards. If creating a welcoming environment for LGBTQ, PoC, Women and other traditionally underrepresented groups and giving them equal consideration for awards is important to the group, then it makes sense that they might want to disallow prejudiced judges. If equal consideration and representation for racist, homophobic or sexist views is also a goal of said organization, it may have an irreconcilable internal conflict.


I think that's a false comparison. "Well, should we welcome women and minorities, or white supremacists?" Obviously any good writer's organization should be open to anyone writing in the genre who is willing to deal respectfully and professionally with all other members. If the organization caters to specific groups - say, a LGBQT group - then I wouldn't expect many conservative Christians to sign up, nor for a lot of LGBQT authors to join a Christian writer's group with a traditionalist slant. (I imagine there might be some overlap, though.)

David Riley, the individual about whom this particular thread began, may be a less marginal case, though by his own statements I am not convinced that even his rather extreme political views equate to believing that "non-white people's stories don't deserve to be told." (He claims otherwise, at least.) But there are a lot of conservative genre authors, and we all know how the culture wars have been whipping around the last few years - take any author from the "red tribe" who's been at all outspoken on social media in the last few years, and you'll probably find a few statements they've made that someone in a "marginalized" group might take exception to. Is that sufficient to exclude all of them from being on a jury? Will we apply the same standard to the many the "blue tribe" authors who've made pretty incendiary remarks about Christians, conservatives, Republicans, libertarians, straight white men, and so on?
 
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Roxxsmom

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The "those situations" I referred to were:



So are you saying people with strong religious beliefs, atheists, Zionists, and Palestinians are all, effectively, bigots?

Not necessarily. It's down to whether or not said religious beliefs lead them to judge people of different religions or values harshly or to question their right to live as they choose.

I am not saying I think no one should ever be disqualified from a jury because of his views. If someone openly says he thinks women can't write science fiction, I think it would be reasonable to exclude him from a jury of works that includes women SF authors. My point is that I am wary of just making blanket declarations like "no bigots allowed," since some people have rather.... broad definitions of what makes someone a bigot.

It is a tough line to draw sometimes. We all have biases that make us more inclined to like certain kinds of stories, themes, characters, represented values, world building and so on than others, and our sociopolitical views are part of this. These will affect which stories we think are most award worthy. At what point are these just personal tastes (akin to my having a soft spot for stories with talking dogs, perhaps, and someone else thinking they're silly or maudlin) versus the sign of something stronger?

I know some people who get glassy eyed every time they see a story with a LGBTQ or PoC protag who doesn't HAVE to be LGBTQ or PoC, for instance, because they think it's inherently forced or political to do this in a story. They may not harbor a conscious dislike of or hatred for these people, but they're internalized a view of what a normal, default protagonist is in their preferred genre and think that departure from such must serve a specific narrative purpose.

One hopes, at the very least, that an award panel will be broad enough that panelists with such views would be balanced by other jurors who are excited to see books with diverse characters. So maybe some of it depends on how large the panel is. Still, I think the inclusion of someone who has openly declared themselves to have blatantly negative views about a group of people (and I don't think such views stemming from religion gives them a free pass) makes a statement about where the organization stands on these things.

One of the things that is really hard to communicate (when asked why people from historically marginalized groups are soooo sensitive) is how exhausting, frustrating, demoralizing, and terrifying it is to be a member of a group whose equality has not been a given, whose rights and autonomy are still being debated on the national level (not just inside specific Churches or whatever), where prejudice against your group and a desire to strip it of rights is presented as a reasonable sociopolitical view and not hate or prejudice.

Maybe someday, PoC, LGBTQ people, women and so on will be able to shrug and say, "Ah, well, that guy's just a jerk," the way white, straight males can when they run across someone who hates their group (I've been told by white, straight males in my life that this is how I should respond). Because maybe someday we'll be far enough from the historical context of inequality that such views will have no teeth or ability to do more than create an unpleasant interaction. But I don't think we're there yet.

Will we apply the same standard to the many the "blue tribe" authors who've made pretty incendiary remarks about Christians, conservatives, Republicans, libertarians, straight white men, and so on?

If someone has stated that they think males, white people, or Christians are lesser beings or people who should hold a lesser status/fewer rights in society, then yes, I'd question their ability to judge novels by or about males, white people or Christians fairly.
 
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kuwisdelu

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Not necessarily. It's down to whether or not said religious beliefs lead them to judge people of different religions or values harshly or to question their right to live as they choose.

Yeah. "Strong religious beliefs" is awfully vague. But if a person believes homosexuality is a sin or other such bigotry, then they probably shouldn't be judging any writing where some characters may be LGBTQ. At least not if there is supposed to be any kind of impartiality.
 

Lillith1991

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I'm old enough to remember when people suspected of Communism were ousted from groups. It's come full-circle and now the other side is the enemy. Of course, back then, it was John Birch Society people.

This entire conversation about if he should have been removed or not will be around for a long time. But the damage done to the HWA is sad because of all the good people who put a lot of work into building it and growing it.

This seems more than a bit ridiculous to me, along with the whole "first they came..." mentality with regards to an issue such as this. One person's right's stop as another or another group's begins, and the HWA is well aware of the race issues associated with the Horror community specifically as an organization that has attempted to champion the inclusion of writers of color within Horror circles. Would we expect that a Jewish writers group open to Jews, Sephardic or Ashenazim, Orthodox, Reform, Hasidim etc. to allow a staunch Hasidic judge who would be unfairly weighted towards appreciating the work of other Hasidim on a similar panel? I don't think we could, should, or even can. The theorized group is for all Jewish writers and the people leading the group have a responsibility to the members to treat them equally, especially when they make a concerted effort to present themselves as that type of group, to protect the interests of the whole. Same goes for the HWA.
 

Amadan

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I know some people who get glassy eyed every time they see a story with a LGBTQ or PoC protag who doesn't HAVE to be LGBTQ or PoC, for instance, because they think it's inherently forced or political to do this in a story. They may not harbor a conscious dislike of or hatred for these people, but they're internalized a view of what a normal, default protagonist is in their preferred genre and think that departure from such must serve a specific narrative purpose.

Well, the problem is assuming that "conservative Christian" or even "expresses opposition to gay marriage" is a good proxy for determining whether a person is such a judge. In my experience, that isn't necessarily so - I know some extremely conservative Catholics and evangelicals who nonetheless will read books by gay authors, with gay characters, and not automatically devalue them because of it. I also know people who are, politically, positive or at worst neutral with regards to gay rights, but are just the sort of person who will roll their eyes at an "unnecessary" gay character. So I do not think an ideological litmus test is a good measure of whether someone is a good juror.
 
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Latina Bunny

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How does this...contest(?) work, exactly? Would the White Supremist (Bigot) be balanced by non-White Supremists on the panel?

Is the goal of the contest to be inclusive? If so, having open bigots (and I do consider White Supremacy as a type of bigotry, sorry) on the panel is not very encouraging.

It's like expecting a man like a Donald Trump (who doesn't seem to have nice things to say about Mexicans, Muslims, or immigrants) to not be biased about a heartwarming story of Mexican or Muslim immigrants living in America, or something, lol. XD
 
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Suppose a jury member is an evangelical Christian or a Roman Catholic or a Mormon, and has admitted in public to believing that homosexuality is a sin. Wouldn't gay writers then be able to claim that such a person is prejudiced against them and can't judge them fairly? Suppose someone has expressed strongly pro-Israel views - is that grounds for a Palestinian writer to ask for their removal from the jury? Would ranting on Facebook about how Donald Trump is Da Man be a disqualifier?

These aren't the same thing. White supremacists believe that people of other races are inherently inferior. There's no way to reasonably believe that a white supremacist could judge a black writer's work fairly. If I get two novels, one by Writer A and one by Writer B, and I firmly believe before even opening them that Writer A is innately stupider and less capable as a human being than Writer B, there's basically no way I can be expected to compare their work on equal terms.

Believing that homosexual sex is a sin doesn't equate to believing that gay people are inherently inferior to straight people. While I find that view repugnant, I wouldn't argue for taking a literary judge off the panel solely for that specific view, because there's no reason to think that he couldn't be open to the possibility that a gay writer - sinner or not - is a better writer than a straight one. Believing that Israel's political interests trump Palestine's doesn't equate to believing that Palestinians are inherently inferior - it doesn't undermine your ability to believe that this Palestinian writer might be better than this Israeli one.

If you've stated outright that you believe certain candidates for an award are inherently inferior to others, then you shouldn't be one bit surprised when people have problems with your credentials as an impartial judge.
 

Amadan

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I agree that there is a qualitative difference there. I wouldn't really have a problem with excluding someone from a jury who has made that kind of explicit statement about the inherent inferiority of some writers.

The problem is, the people at the center of these controversies rarely make that kind of explicit statement. It's assumed they feel that way because of their political affiliations, or inferred from other things they say, but I'm pretty sure Riley himself has denied believing that non-white people are inferior.

I am not defending David Riley in particular (I don't really know anything about him other than what's been reported, and I'm only vaguely familiar with the British National Front), but someone else mentioned Donald Trump, and I've seen less damning evidence than an explicit call for repatriating illegal aliens used as evidence that someone is hopelessly prejudiced and should be shunned.
 

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Amadan: So you think it was right for Riley to step down from the HWA? And he did. Why bring in the slippery slope? Is there some evidence of the juries of multiple writers' awards stripping their membership of bigots?

It is an odd need to pre-emptively jump in there and defend no one against nothing.
 

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...and I'm only vaguely familiar with the British National Front...

This might help then: National Front.

The National Front (NF) is a British far-right political party for whites only, opposed to non-white immigration, and committed to a programme of repatriation. While denying accusations of fascism, it has cultivated links with neo-Nazi cells at home and abroad, and the British police and prison services forbid their employees to be members of the party.
 

Latina Bunny

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It's not just prejudice against authors specifically that's a concern.

People write characters who are PoC and LGBTQ, too.

How can you be unbiased if you think some people's stories are inherently not worth telling?
^Exactly.

I'm glad the White Supremacist guy stepped down. If the goal is to be inclusive, then having a person who believes in the mentality of certain races being inferior on a jury that selects diverse stories or diverse authors would not be fair or helpful. I would assume the contest is meant to be inclusive?

(I am also going to assume if one joins a White Supremacist group then Inwould think that one actually believes in the "White is Supreme" mentality. Otherwise, why join a group like that?)
 
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Amadan

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I've already read the Wikipedia page on the BNF, thanks.


Amadan: So you think it was right for Riley to step down from the HWA? And he did. Why bring in the slippery slope? Is there some evidence of the juries of multiple writers' awards stripping their membership of bigots?

It is an odd need to pre-emptively jump in there and defend no one against nothing.

That's what the thread is about. No, this isn't the first time a controversy like this has arisen.

I'm not defending Riley as an individual, I'm disagreeing that someone's external political views should be a disqualifier unless they directly relate to their qualifications. "Might be biased against some writers" as a (dis)qualification is a slippery slope, and yes, I'm going to argue that.

The implications of "need" and "jumping in there" are duly noted, but they are inaccurate.
 

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I think views are relevant when they will directly prejudice the act of judging. And I think when a person is on the record as a white supremacist that argument is easy to make. It is a position attributing worth to one group only. This is not a man who is immersed in his Celtic heritage and likes to Morris dance, it is someone who wants every person of color force-ably evicted from the nation they were born in. On the face of it this point of view is incompatible with fairly judging books by or about people of color.

Can you really expect an author to accept a judge is unbiased about their work, but just happens to want to put them on the first available one-way flight to Africa?
 
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truantoranje

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One of the many reasons I decided to leave the HWA. Also factoring in that presiding officials are eligible to (and often receive) their most prestigious award, the Stoker®.
 
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