Fallout for North Carolina's LGBT law

DancingMaenid said:

I was just going to post about that.

It's "funny" -- so many bigoted people claim that it's "obvious" when someone is trans and that women will be intimidated by trans women in their bathrooms because they look like "men in dresses."

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This, but at the other end of the prejudice extreme are people who say that if transgender people are to blame for their own harassment, because if they weren't flaunting that they're transgender, no one would attack or harass them. The usual victim blaming shit.

This makes me want to just and

So this law has put a weapon in the hands of haters who have a bug up their butt about gender presentation and roles in general, so cisgender women who have (gasp) pixie cuts or who don't wear makeup or girlish clothes are now getting harassed too.

So here's something for the people who are terrified cisgender men will en masse go to women's room and claim they're transgender women so they can peek at or assault women. Can't cisgender men claim to be trans men who are required by law to use women's rooms now? What can a woman do if there's a very masculine man in the women's room, and he says he was assigned female at birth so he has to use it by law. And what about cisgender men who say they're following women into bathrooms because "they want to make sure they're really women?"

I think this law creates even more opportunities for men to sneak into women's rooms to leer or assault. Thanks conservative assholes for making bathrooms less safe for everyone.

There are times when I'm ashamed to be a member of the human race.

I agree with roxxmom. This is nothing more than a blatant attempt to allow bigoted aresholes to behave like bigoted arseholes without any reprocussions.

Also, don't ladies' toilets in the USA have cubicles? If someone did want to go into the ladies to peek, what actually would they see? Women going into cubicles to use the toilet! Whoopee do! You don't see any more of women's bodies than you would anywhere else. I thought the whole separation of men's and women's toilets was about women not having to see men get their todgers out to use the urinals. Men who for whatever reason don't want to use the urinals and/or who need to do a number 2 can use the cubicles. If they don't want to see other men's willies they can choose to not look. Women's toilets only have cubicles so I cannot for the life of me see what the fuss is about.

In the UK, employers are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of employees' (or potential employees') gender,* so cleaning staff that clean toilets can be of either gender, i.e. male cleaners cleaning ladies' toilets and female cleaners cleaning men's toilets. So if someone wanted to peek, they could get a job cleaning toilets. Except there's nothing to see. So what's the point?

*there are some exceptions, such as jobs like being a carer that has to help someone with their intimate care, but toilet cleaner is not one such exception.

Also, if this is just a case of "I don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as this person who's a little bit different to me" then that's in the same league as "I don't feel comfortable travelling on the bus with this particular ethnic group, maybe they should be forced to sit at the back and only have people of my ethnicity sit at the front." It's the same bigoted attitude. Some people aren't comfortable with the very existence of people who are slightly different and doing nothing whatsoever to hurt them. The threat is in the bigot's mind due to prejudice and ignorance. The bigot has to learn to get the fuck over their prejudice and deal with the fact that people who aren't exactly the same as them not only exist but have the same right to enjoy life - and use the bathroom - as they do. Laws should protect people from prejudice, harrassment and bigotry. They shouldn't pander to the bigots.

If someone's being antisocial, then the law can step in and stop them from being antisocial. But if the person that's making someone feel uncomfortable isn't actually doing anything wrong - just existing - just being a little bit different - then someone needs to tell the bigots to grow up and deal with the fact that this person has the same right to be there as they do.

neandermagnon said:

I agree with roxxmom. This is nothing more than a blatant attempt to allow bigoted aresholes to behave like bigoted arseholes without any reprocussions.

Also, don't ladies' toilets in the USA have cubicles? If someone did want to go into the ladies to peek, what actually would they see? Women going into cubicles to use the toilet!

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They do, but in the US, public multi use "restrooms," as we call them, typically have very flimsy cubicles that are open at the top and bottom (so someone could stand on the toilet in the next stall and look down at you), and they have latches that would be pretty easy to break if you wanted to corner someone in a stall. Many women feel very insecure in public restrooms, especially late at night. According to a story I heard on npr the other day, this is different than the way restrooms are in most other places now. Last time I was in the UK, though, I remember a lot of public lavatories that are like ours.

And of course there's the whole urinal thing in men's bathrooms.

neandermagnon said:

If someone's being antisocial, then the law can step in and stop them from being antisocial. But if the person that's making someone feel uncomfortable isn't actually doing anything wrong - just existing - just being a little bit different - then someone needs to tell the bigots to grow up and deal with the fact that this person has the same right to be there as they do.

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This is it exactly. There are some people who are insisting that their right to be completely free of discomfort is greater than another person's right to live a normal life or to be safe. And some lawmakers are listening to them.

Roxxsmom said:

This is it exactly. There are some people who are insisting that their right to be completely free of discomfort is greater than another person's right to live a normal life or to be safe. And some lawmakers are listening to them.

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Safe spaces. Not just for college students any more.

Hella can of worms that got opened up there.

RedRajah said:

Knew this would happen...

Woman Harassed in Bathroom for Appearing Transgender — and She’s Not Alone

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I don't know that this incident is fallout from the NC law. It was in Connecticut, after all. And as the article indicates, such incidents are not a new thing. What's new here is that she made a video about the incident and posted it to FB. Tough to do in the 70's, 80's, and 90's (and before).

And yeah, the comments about it being the fault of Obama/Democrats are ridiculous. But the attitude on apparent* display existed before the NC bathroom bill, to be sure. The assclowns there just tapped into it.



* I have to say "apparent" because there's nothing here but a FB rant. It may all be true, but it may also all be fabricated (though I'm certain such incidents really do happen). After all "gay slur cake boy" has now fessed up to it all being a hoax. I'm not sure what I can take at face value anymore, with so many people desperately seeking attention/fame.

I had to come somewhere I could vent my anger at what I just read.

First, I found this:

It's pretty cool.

To demonstrate how reality may differ for different Facebook users, The Wall Street Journal created two feeds, one “blue” and the other “red.” If a source appears in the red feed, a majority of the articles shared from the source were classified as “very conservatively aligned” in a large 2015 Facebook study. For the blue feed, a majority of each source’s articles aligned “very liberal.” These aren't intended to resemble actual individual news feeds. Instead, they are rare side-by-side looks at real conversations from different perspectives.

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You pick a topic and see both sides of the story, side by side. I decided to pick a topic and chose transgender. I don't know why. I guess I wanted to piss myself off. Scrolling through, I saw this on the red side.

I know it's the Conservative Tribune. Of course it's going to be terrible. And it was. But the comments were even worse. Nearly 200 comments so far, all ranting and raving bull shit about Target and the whole bathroom situation. The comments made me angry, but more than that, quite scared. People actually think this way. And you figure each person who comments represents at least 10 people who feel the same way they do - families and friends. I just...I don't even have words for how it made me feel to read through them.

It's not even common sense!!! Why do they think that anything's going to change? Why do they think that suddenly all the evil men are going to start going into the women's room to rape them? Don't they realize if a man is going to do that, he would have anyway? Regardless? Don't they realize that exactly NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE? That they've already seen transgenders in the bathroom without even realizing it?

I was thinking of posting some of the comments here, but I don't want to hurt Diana or anyone else. If you want to make yourself completely disgusted with humanity, you know where to look.

I just needed to come to a place where the people know reason and good sense and how to be human. I stay away from posting anything political at all on my FB feed b/c my family is extremely conservative. Well, my siblings. I've already cut my mother out of my life. I'll vent to my husband when I get home, but you guys are all I have at the moment.

The only consolation (and it's a small one) is that these yahoos are being more and more marginalized as time goes on, being squeezed into smaller and smaller spaces, and having less and less control.

This might help a bit: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transgender-conservatives-1.3586971

I wonder if, given the crap in NC, residents could apply as political refugees...

Alpha Echo said:

I was thinking of posting some of the comments here, but I don't want to hurt Diana or anyone else. If you want to make yourself completely disgusted with humanity, you know where to look.

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I was going to post some videos of "preachers" screaming in Target stores, and other incidents of harassment, because I believe they /have been emboldened by the NC law and push in other states for them. But they are so ugly, I didn't know if it would be worse to have them here.

Angry Guy said:

The only consolation (and it's a small one) is that these yahoos are being more and more marginalized as time goes on, being squeezed into smaller and smaller spaces, and having less and less control.

This might help a bit: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transgender-conservatives-1.3586971

I wonder if, given the crap in NC, residents could apply as political refugees...

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You're right. The article even points it out - Millennials and whatever generation comes after them are pushing out the beliefs of the older generations. My daughter, for example, has never given it a second though. Honestly, I never have either which is crazy considering the family I was born into.

But the factions of people who rant and rave about LGBT and homosexual agendas...who are so insecure that they see everything as a threat...frankly those people scare the hell out of me.

Lyv said:

I was going to post some videos of "preachers" screaming in Target stores, and other incidents of harassment, because I believe they /have been emboldened by the NC law and push in other states for them. But they are so ugly, I didn't know if it would be worse to have them here.

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I don't know what to say to this, but I wanted to recognize your comment.

I put this in the Bathroom Wars thread, but since this thread seems more active, and this is imo related to NC, and we need good news, I'll stick it here as well (and will delete one or the other, if a mod feels it's an inappropriate duplication):

A day after the Senate overwhelmingly approved the transgender rights bill, a Lowell city councilor proposed that Lowell oppose the bill. There was a meeting and vote was last Tuesday. Thanks to that one councilor, there was an outpouring of support for transgender men, women, and children, and then this happened:

Other city councilors supported a second motion, brought forward by Corey Belanger, to instead support the state bill, which bans discrimination based on gender identity in public restrooms and locker rooms.

That motion passed 8-1, with only Elliott opposed.

(Some pretty great videos at the link)

"We coexist better than anyone, and that's what makes us great," Belanger said.


The City Council got a standing ovation upon making the vote.

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Lyv said:

I was going to post some videos of "preachers" screaming in Target stores, and other incidents of harassment, because I believe they /have been emboldened by the NC law and push in other states for them. But they are so ugly, I didn't know if it would be worse to have them here.

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I've gone to Target a couple of times recently, hoping to be able to walk past them as I go in to give the store my money, but I guess I don't shop at the right ones...

https://ksl.com/?sid=39912485&nid=148

Man says he was attacked for taking 5-year-old daughter inside men's restroom

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A Walmart restroom.

So it seems to me, the lesson is: stay out of Walmarts...

Update: NBA pulls All-Star game with support from Turner Sports and ESPN, while McCrory continues his obtuse rhetoric. Link

...Chris Sgro, the executive director of Equality North Carolina and the only openly gay member of the state’s General Assembly, said in a telephone interview Thursday that the N.B.A. was making a strong statement by removing one of its marquee events from Charlotte.
“The state of North Carolina grossly overreached by passing the worst anti-L.G.B.T. bill in the nation, and they have cost us the N.B.A. All-Star Game,” Mr. Sgro said. “The blame for $100 million in economic loss and the impact that it has on the city of Charlotte and the entire state is squarely at the feet of the McCrory machine.” ...

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Update: NCAA to pull 2017 tournament and championship games from North Carolina over HB2

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-events-north-carolina-house-bill-2/90284584/

This includes an NCAA basketball tournament site that was to be hosted in Greensboro, where UNC and/or Duke were almost certainly guaranteed to play.

College basketball is king in North Carolina. If nothing else, this gives the Democrats more ammunition against Governor Pat McCrory and the Republicans in general.

The NCAA's statement was met by a blistering reply from...not the governor, not the legislature, but the NC Republican Party spokesperson. Apparently they speak for the state government.

The statement is so absurd even the talking head guys on sports TV were stunned. That's saying something.

Oh, this is SO deserving of a "bump."


In an election season that was fairly brutal to Democrats, leaving them with no control over any level of government, there was one bright spot for the party: Democrat Roy Cooper beat Republican Gov. Pat McCrory in the gubernatorial race in North Carolina.

Earlier this year, McCrory and state Republicans passed a law that overturned and banned local nondiscrimination protections that legally protect LGBTQ people from discrimination and prohibited transgender people from using the bathroom that aligns with their gender identity in schools and government buildings. Sarah McBride of the Human Rights Campaign called it “one of the most extreme, anti-LGBT bills we've seen yet.”

The backlash was swift, costing the state jobs and, ultimately, McCrory his reelection.

More than 200 major CEOs and business leaders signed an open letter calling for the law’s repeal. PayPal, the NBA, the NCAA, and Bruce Springsteen, among others, pulled business out of the state. By Wired’s estimate, North Carolina has so far lost $395 million — “more than the GDP of Micronesia” — as a result of the law.

This was an intentional strategy from LGBTQ groups. The thinking was simple: If the governor and other Republicans don’t care about LGBTQ rights, maybe they’ll care about the law’s economic impact. At the very least, voters will care about the economic impact. It’s a way of transforming an identity politics issue into an economics one.

What went down in North Carolina is a lesson to be learned for activists. There is considerable power in first reacting emotionally and then shifting into acting strategically. It's a longer and slower course, but it can work.

Don't believe me? Just ask Pat McCrory.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
~ Gandhi

And good riddance to the jackass.

Perks said:

And good riddance to the jackass.

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What she said. Don't let the door hit you on the wait out, you useless worm.

Evidence that boycotts can have an effect. Something to point out next time any of encounter a concern troll who insists that boycotts are a form of "censorship" that don't work anyway when the person saying this really doesn't agree with the reason for the boycott. Of course, to have this kind of effect, boycotts need to be well publicized and picked up by some large companies and organizations that have a lot of financial clout.

Also, bills passed by legislators and pushed/signed by governors may be easier to target than those passed by popular referendum, since the state's voters have someone other than themselves to blame for the fallout. There were boycotts of Colorado in the 90s because of Amendment 2 (a really vicious anti LGBTQ law passed by voter referendum). They didn't film the TV production of The Stand in Boulder, where it was set, for instance, because of that. Unfortunately, all it did was make the people who'd voted for the referendum more entrenched in their views. But the only way to repeal it would have been a second referendum, because of the way the CO constitution was written. Oh, or a SCOTUS decision declaring the law unconstitutional, which is what struck that law down eventually. Guess which three justices who were on the court at that time dissented?

I hope the North Carolina law becomes history soon and doesn't have to wait for the supreme court to weigh in. Unfortunately, there are some similar laws in other states that have gotten less publicity, and some of them seem to allow racial discrimination too.

Before HB2 can be overturned, the state legislature will have to change hands. A recent federal court ruling will force elections in gerrymandered districts to be held in 2017, one year early.

Of course, it's already under appeal, so who knows what will happen.