At What Stage is it 'Too Taboo'

Jasper_Rajaha · Apr 6, 2016

Hey guys!

I've recently started writing erotic fiction. Also this is my first post on any forum about it (wooooo).

I just wanted to get people's thoughts and opinions on what is considered acceptable by publishers. I know it's one thing to write very explicit material between consenting adults - but what if it's non-consensual, or its a human with something non-human? Essentially what if it's a bit messed up?

Also a lot of places like Amazon have guidelines that say:

" Pornography
We don't accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts. "

So erotica is not porn. But the "offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts" ... could that limit things like the non-consensual sex and other taboo. I mean i have no desire to write about people under 18, but there was this scene involving tentacles that I guess could be considered offensive as that's technically 'beastiality'.

Sorry for all the scrambled thoughts! But yeah - how is this stuff viewed? I'm just not sure! and if it's not OK to publish on Amazon - is there an outlet for it?

My book is a M/M erotica in the fantasy genre

M.N Thorne · Apr 6, 2016

Actually, tentacle erotica would be better suited for Nook Press or Smashwords. However, it is not considered beastiality but falls under a grey area. You can sell content on places like Niteflirt but you an not sell tentacle erotica unless it falls under the whole Lovecraftian erotica theme. I would also stay away from incest and other taboo erotica unless you want to sell to adult industry websites. Now, there is a small publishing company named Lot's Cave that would sell taboo stuff as well. Or you could sell your taboo erotica to phone sex companies and very extreme porn sites. No taboo phone sex companies and very extreme porn sites often buy taboo erotica for a good price.Or if you want to sell your taboo works on your own website and have a payment processor.

I hope this helps. :hooray:

DancingMaenid · Apr 8, 2016

It really depends on the market. It's not like there's one definition of "too taboo" -- you just need to find a publisher or platform that's okay with the stuff you write.

Amazon is tricky because they don't always apply their rules consistently or in a predictable way. For example, I know a while back people whose books contained the word "virgin" in the title were being flagged because Amazon's software would flag that as the book containing underage sex--even if the book was about adults or wasn't even erotica. Amazon primarily flags "inappropriate" erotica based on keywords in the title/description or the cover image.

When it comes to stuff like tentacles, my understanding, which may be outdated, is that Amazon doesn't permit bestiality involving real-life, non-sentient animals, but does permit stuff like werewolves/shapeshifters, aliens, dinosaurs, etc. However, I'm not positive if this is still accurate. Your tentacle fiction might be fine, but you'd have to be mindful of your book description, title, etc. if you plan to self-publish on Amazon.

Fallen · Apr 11, 2016

There is tentacle sex on Amazon. E.g., Kraken by M. Caspian. I think that was first published by the MM Goodreads Dear Author challenge, then the author self-pubbed on Amazon. As for publishers, I think there's a market for most things; it's just shopping around. Try having a look on Goodreads via their tags and seeing who has published those.

veinglory · Apr 11, 2016

In terms of Amazon "too taboo" is topics legal obscene under US law with a bit of a safety margin around them. That being primarily child abuse, bestiality, and incest. Sentient beings do not count as bestiality.

Savant99 · Apr 11, 2016

I've read that Amazon has the 'pornography/sex' exclusion primarily for plausible deniability. They turn a blind eye to most stuff in this genre, so long as it doesn't go overboard. However, if anything 'hits the news' they can delete it after the fact and then claim that the work violated their terms of service. That way they don't get stuck being labelled as being complicit in its distribution.

But make no mistake, Amazon has a massive adult section for both 'toys' and for erotica. They'll take the money provided it doesn't get them in trouble with the public.

veinglory · Apr 11, 2016

In my experience they do not turn a blind eye at all. But they have a report-based system. So if a ruler-breaking book is not reported it is unlikely to be detected.

And they primarily don't want to post anything illegal in the US. Things that just cause an online blow up are sometimes deleted and sometimes not. People have been working hard to get them to take down rape fic and dog fighting manuals for decades, and both are still available.

CharleeBeck · Apr 14, 2016

I know 18 is a strict line. As for noncon/rape/etc you can do whatever you want. If it heads off into snuff territory or gets too full-scale depraved, you can always just sell it under the horror label. If you're talking actual publishers then I feel like the rules vary from place to place. The more niche you get, the less broad appeal you will have, but if we all wrote right down the middle then we'd have a pretty boring library.

CJMockingbird · Aug 24, 2016

Sorry to bump this, but I'm curious as I dabble in the noncon/rape/incest catergory when I do write erotica. Everyone around me says I should go into publishing it, but I can't find anyone that accepts works like that. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong?

StoryofWoe · Aug 24, 2016

Re: Amazon's enforcement of the no-taboo content in erotica policy, I can't help but wonder if this is a bigger issue for self-publishers. Tiffany Reisz's Original Sinners Series features underage sex (adult woman and a fifteen-year-old boy; adult man and a sixteen-year-old boy; teenage boys at boarding school, adult priest and a teenage girl, to list a few), and her recent women's fiction novel (that basically reads like romantic suspense) The Bourbon Thief features [Spoiler alert] multiple scenes of incest between half-siblings--oh, and the girl's only seventeen, while the guy is twenty-eight. Both the series and stand-alone are published by Mira Books (Harlequin) and sold on Amazon. I also recently read Topping from Below by Laura Reese, published by St. Martin's and purchased via Amazon, which includes multiple scenes depicting bestiality and a scene involving the viewing of child pornography.

So, has no one bothered to report these books, or is there some double-standard at play? As someone who enjoys a certain amount of taboo content and would prefer to trade pub, I'm genuinely curious.

MJLowry said:
Sorry to bump this, but I'm curious as I dabble in the noncon/rape/incest catergory when I do write erotica. Everyone around me says I should go into publishing it, but I can't find anyone that accepts works like that. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong?

You might want to check out the Erotica Readers and Writers Association's Author Resources page. I believe there are a couple of epublishers listed that accept taboo erotica.

Selkie · Aug 25, 2016

Fallen said:
There is tentacle sex on Amazon. E.g., Kraken by M. Caspian. I think that was first published by the MM Goodreads Dear Author challenge, then the author self-pubbed on Amazon. As for publishers, I think there's a market for most things; it's just shopping around. Try having a look on Goodreads via their tags and seeing who has published those.

Yeah, I've definitely seen tentacle sex on Amazon. I wish I could remember the titles, but it was for sure there.

dangerousbill · Aug 28, 2016

Jasper_Rajaha said:
Also a lot of places like Amazon have guidelines that say:

" Pornography
We don't accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts. "

This means whatever Amazon wants it to mean, which is entirely arbitrary. If you look at erotica novels published by Amazon, you'll see most forms of explicit erotica are there. Much milder novels get kicked out Amazon's back door every day. What seems to work well is to put the novel up on Smashworks or Lulu.com. Eventually, it will show up on Amazon.

Avoid explicit covers. They can be suggestive, but exposed nipples, etc, are taboo, and more likely to get your novel banned than explicit content.

Maryn · Aug 28, 2016

Title suggesting things Amazon frowns upon--incest, rape as an erotic act, like that--are also likely to get you booted, even if the content does not actually include such acts.

Noizchild · Aug 28, 2016

Things that are illegal, in my opinion.

edutton · Aug 28, 2016

Well, they apparently don't have a problem with Broken In By Bigfoot, so...

spicefiction · Oct 29, 2016

StoryofWoe said:
Re: Amazon's enforcement of the no-taboo content in erotica policy, I can't help but wonder if this is a bigger issue for self-publishers. Tiffany Reisz's Original Sinners Series features underage sex (adult woman and a fifteen-year-old boy; adult man and a sixteen-year-old boy; teenage boys at boarding school, adult priest and a teenage girl, to list a few), and her recent women's fiction novel (that basically reads like romantic suspense) The Bourbon Thief features [Spoiler alert] multiple scenes of incest between half-siblings--oh, and the girl's only seventeen, while the guy is twenty-eight. Both the series and stand-alone are published by Mira Books (Harlequin) and sold on Amazon. I also recently read Topping from Below by Laura Reese, published by St. Martin's and purchased via Amazon, which includes multiple scenes depicting bestiality and a scene involving the viewing of child pornography.

So, has no one bothered to report these books, or is there some double-standard at play? As someone who enjoys a certain amount of taboo content and would prefer to trade pub, I'm genuinely curious.

You might want to check out the Erotica Readers and Writers Association's Author Resources page. I believe there are a couple of epublishers listed that accept taboo erotica.

Romeo and Juliet were underage. But seriously, I think reporting is triggered by the main theme/tone rather than crossing a distinct line. There is a lot of caution around underage people in fiction and authors sometimes confuse the laws that apply in reality to mean that characters in fiction must be law abiding.

Alcasgra · Oct 30, 2016

I think the term "too taboo" can become subjective at times, but personally I find any sexual acts involving people under the age of 18 a little too much to bear. Then again, it may have something to do with the fact that I used to teach elementary Mathematics. Consequently, after dealing with children for years, I just can't bring myself to read anything sexual when the characters are underage. I have even stopped reading high school love/romance stories. I really just can't.

Markiemoo · Jan 21, 2017

I see now that Amazon has a science fiction sub-heading under Erotica. Do you think taboo will be more accepted there? I write dystopian erotica which may include underage and definitely includes mutants

the bunny hugger · Jan 21, 2017

The obscenity issues generally do not apply to books not in the 'erotica' genre because they are presumed to have a 'literary merit' defense.

99% if all of this does track back to the US obscenity law and is only arbitrary because that law, like any law that draws a sharp line across ambiguous territory, is in fact arbitrary. But its arbitrariness is generally quite transparent in terms of what is in and what is out.

Markiemoo · Jan 21, 2017

Good to know, Bunny Hugger

scandalys · Jan 24, 2017

I don't think the subcategory/subgenre matters very much to the underage issue. Mutants would certainly go under sci-fi.

Markiemoo · Jan 24, 2017

Yes, i have been using erotica>science fiction since my books are post-apocalyptic dystopian

JeanLuc · Mar 14, 2017

I find the concept of limiting what fictional characters can do in fictional stories quite bizarre.

Underdawg47 · Mar 15, 2017

I think it is very limiting for a writer to not write about taboo subjects such as incest or underage sex. I know too many people who have been victims of sexual abuse as a child, or have had sex with relatives, and to tell their story would be illegal. I can understand the importance of protecting children, but I am confused as to what can be told and what is illegal to write about. "Flowers In The Attic" involves incest among underage children. "Sybil" was a miniseries that told the story of a woman who was sexually abused by her mother as a child.

Maryn · Mar 16, 2017

I think the point writers must keep in mind is that while we can and do write about underage sex, incest, and rape, publishers and book retailers don't want those topics framed as erotic material. Neither Flowers in the Attic nor Sybil was presented as erotica of any kind.

Maryn, who read them both, as did everybody else she knew

At What Stage is it 'Too Taboo'

Jasper_Rajaha

M.N Thorne

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Savant99

veinglory

volitare nequeo

CharleeBeck

CJMockingbird

StoryofWoe

Sick and pale with grief.

Selkie

dangerousbill

Retired Illuminatus

Maryn

Baaa!

Noizchild

edutton

Ni. Peng. Neee-Wom.

spicefiction

Independant Author

Alcasgra

Markiemoo

Not Throwing Away My Shot

the bunny hugger

practical experience, FTW

Markiemoo

Not Throwing Away My Shot

scandalys

Markiemoo

Not Throwing Away My Shot

JeanLuc

Underdawg47

Maryn

Baaa!