End of Postmodernism?

Status
Not open for further replies.

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
I can tell you categorically that a pick up line in a bar does not have the same status as "Leaves of Grass." Then again, if Walt Whitman himself delivers said line, then maybe. That statement was pretty funny. I think it's a little on the pretentious side for those fellows to say that the way one mows his lawn qualifies as art. You can't exactly display that in the Chicago Art Institute.

Hey, Walt Whitman's leaves of grass are just facsimiles. Mine are the real thing.

No, you can't display it in a gallery, which is the point. Art shouldn't be defined by what building you find it in. And really, what's more pretentious, my lawn or the art approved by a wealthy oligarchy?

I'm kidding, mostly, and do I agree that actually the public sees the work of a Renaissance master as a less pretentious piece of art than my lawn. While the latter is more accessible to create, the former is more accessible to appreciate. The former can just be seen as a pretty picture. The latter requires participation in a sort of inside joke about what kind of statement I'm making by calling my lawn art.
 

America's Proust

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
84
Reaction score
2
Location
Honolulu, HI
Might you also say that it's more than "a little on the pretentious side" for someone to claim that the way one mows their lawn might never qualify as art?

No, I won't. The reason I won't say this is because the word "pretentious," according to Merriam-Webster is defined as such: "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed."

Therefore: the man who says that the way he mows his lawn might never qualify as art doesn't attempt to exaggerate the importance of his way of mowing their lawn when this is said. Therefore, this is actually a display of humility.
 

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
No, I won't. The reason I won't say this is because the word "pretentious," according to Merriam-Webster is defined as such: "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed."

Therefore: the man who says that the way he mows his lawn might never qualify as art doesn't attempt to exaggerate the importance of his way of mowing their lawn when this is said. Therefore, this is actually a display of humility.

If you say it about your own lawn, it's humility, but if you say it about someone else's lawn, definitely not. Whether it's pretentious depends on whether you're right or not.
 

America's Proust

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
84
Reaction score
2
Location
Honolulu, HI
But you can apparently display chairs: http://www.artic.edu/exhibition/design-episodes-modern-chair

Have you never seen what can be done creatively with a very large lawn?

I live on the Island of Oahu. Pineapple Garden Maze on the Dole Plantation. The largest lawn on the island and a tourist attraction. It's actually a little more impressive from the air. I don't think that was the point being made, though. I think morngnstar was trying to allude more to Joe Suburbanite mowing his lawn behind his house...
 

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
I actually had in mind lawn mowing as a kind of performance art. Sort of a John Deere ballet. And yes starring Joe Suburbanite. But the point is that all kinds of things can be art, so the Pineapple Garden Maze can be too, and Joe Suburbanite might be able to do something similar on a smaller scale.
 

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,854
Reaction score
3,057
Location
Not where you last saw me.
Brief adjective 1. of short duration.


Also? How in the world did a thread purporting to be about postmodern literature take such a precipitous dive into pretentious lawn care? Now I ask you.

If anyone does want to have a discussion on postmodern literature, PM me and we'll see. Otherwise, we're done here.
 

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,854
Reaction score
3,057
Location
Not where you last saw me.
I said this is your room and it is; I'm only the janitor. I've received requests to reopen the thread in response to my invitation to do so, as I hoped I would.

Thing is, we had a lot of readers and would-be participants who got left behind when we got off on what qualifies as art (lawn mowing), pretension, and performance art. What does or does not qualify as art is a whole 'nother (highly subjective) discussion. (I happen to agree with that.)

I, too, want us to have this potentially interesting and productive discussion on postmodern literature. I won't, however, direct it other than to keep it on track; I left my formal teaching days way back in the dust of my youth.

The thread is open.
 
Last edited:

lacygnette

Sucked in by AW again
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
1,862
Reaction score
253
Website
www.terrilewis1.com
Ok, I have a question. Could we have some examples of postmodern writing? I'm not sure if I ever read any. I think if I knew a writer or two, I could get a sense of what it means. I remember one short story where the sea was rising in NYC and a party went on as they moved up the floors; I always thought it was postmodern (can't remember the author, sorry...)
 

Two McMillion

Not a Potato Peeler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
72
Reaction score
16
Location
Alabama
Website
twitter.com
Ok, I have a question. Could we have some examples of postmodern writing? I'm not sure if I ever read any. I think if I knew a writer or two, I could get a sense of what it means. I remember one short story where the sea was rising in NYC and a party went on as they moved up the floors; I always thought it was postmodern (can't remember the author, sorry...)

To me, postmodern writing is a spectrum literary devices that all hinge around an awareness within the story that the story is a story. Thus, Deadpool and his fourth wall awareness are on the spectrum of postmodernism, is as Patrick Rothfess' Name of the Wind or Stephen King's later Dark Tower books where King himself shows up as a character. On the more extreme end, you have something like House of Leaves, which is about stories within stories and even does tricks with way the book itself is printed. S would be another example that plays with the form of writing by including letters or marginal notes in the story in addition to the text of the book itself. The New York Trilogy by Paul Auster and The Shadow of the Wind would be in the middle somewhere.
 

lacygnette

Sucked in by AW again
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
1,862
Reaction score
253
Website
www.terrilewis1.com
OK, I never read any of these titles. I'll go look them up...the Auster looked like a possibility. Not in my normal range of reading, but possible (there was a long excerpt on Amazon.) But short stories anyone? I'd rather start there than invest in a full novel. I bought Infinite Jest and have struggled to a stop with it. Will try again later.
 

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
8,943
Reaction score
3,151
Location
In God I dwell, especially in Eugene OR
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Borges was a post-modern writer; most of his works are short stories. Rushdie's Haroun and the Sea of Stories is considered post-modern by some. So is Waiting for Godot. (Not a story or novel, but...)

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

America's Proust

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
84
Reaction score
2
Location
Honolulu, HI
Postmodern literature was built around the sheer level of destruction and a mass disillusionment having been left in the wake of World War II. I posted a link to TV Tropes earlier on. Postmodernism (at least in literature) can be summed up thusly: The war wasn't won by one great general's decision, but rather a complex spiderweb of interconnected decisions that the world will never truly understand completely. Thus, postmodern literature is often a complex narrative spiderweb. Thomas Pynchon immediately comes to mind. I've read some of his stuff and it still keeps me awake thinking about it.

But, as is the rule with every literary movement, the good times can't last forever. I'm thinking about where literature goes from here. What is to succeed postmodern literature? Considering that postmodenr lit was a reaction to WWII, this certainly brings to mind reactions in our time to the War on Terrorism.
 
Last edited:

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
Meaning what, though? Would you please elaborate?

I mean, predicting what movements may come next doesn't really make sense. They happen and then they're examined during their midst and in retrospect.

People will write what they write. Not everyone wrote postmodernist literature, and people will continue to incorporate postmodern elements after it's "over".

:Shrug:

I write postcolonial queer speculative fiction. I've also described my writing as postindian.

What do you write?

Edit: Postindian genderfuck. Yes, that is what I'll call my literary movement. What's yours?
 
Last edited:

America's Proust

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
84
Reaction score
2
Location
Honolulu, HI
Well, currently, I'm writing a satirical work just for the hell of it. My missus says I'm too serious and I needed to lighten up. I thought of the best way to do that being a satire book. But for serious work, as in the stuff I actually will publish, I am cold and brutal. I kill off characters and subject them to the maximum pain and suffering I can. (That's what sells, too, so that's a bonus.)

I did find this while I was digging around and thought it quite interesting: http://www.stuckism.com/remod.html
 

Two McMillion

Not a Potato Peeler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
72
Reaction score
16
Location
Alabama
Website
twitter.com
Hello? Guys? Where does literature go from here?

I can't speak for all genres, but from what I've observed in science fiction and fantasy, I see a rolling back of several of the major influences of postmodernism:

- Less dystopia: To my mind, dystopia was always strongly related to postmodernism, in that it provided a way to capture the feeling of alienation and the powerlessness of the individual in the face of larger forces. I predict that for the next decade at least, the popular sci-fi and fantasy will have an optimistic outlook.

- Harder magic systems: Brandon Sanderson is the obvious example here, but he's not the only one and he definitely won't be the last. I think that the rising prominence of fantasy with hard magic systems signifies a cultural shift in how the average reader wants to view the world. The world of postmodernism is one in which the individual is often powerless and forces we cannot understand are at play. In contrast, "hard fantasy" brings what traditionally is the most mystical and unpredictable part of fantasy- magic- and makes it something firmly within human understanding and control. I predict that we will a similar effect in other areas of speculative fiction- that there will be an underlying belief that the universe is fundamentally something we can understand and bend to our will.

- Less relativism: while postmodernism is inherently relativistic, I predict that as it rolls back it will be replaced by a more firmly held belief in certain values as basically right or wrong. It would not at all surprise me if the "species that is always evil" trope came back into prominence in fantasy.

- More focus on the power of individuals to be the movers and shakers of the world: I predict that the heroic ideal in fantasy will be the person who acts decisively. We will see stories about heroes who are heroes because they stood up when others held back, or who are extremely pragmatic and quick-thinking in their acts. This factor is very nebulous, but I definitely foresee certain trends about what heroism means rising in prominence.

None of this is to say that all of this stuff vanished due to postmodernism; it didn't. Likewise, postmodernism will continue to be around for some time. But there are the sort of things I expect to see changes around in the near future.
 

Two McMillion

Not a Potato Peeler
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
72
Reaction score
16
Location
Alabama
Website
twitter.com
Well, currently, I'm writing a satirical work just for the hell of it. My missus says I'm too serious and I needed to lighten up. I thought of the best way to do that being a satire book. But for serious work, as in the stuff I actually will publish, I am cold and brutal. I kill off characters and subject them to the maximum pain and suffering I can. (That's what sells, too, so that's a bonus.)

I did find this while I was digging around and thought it quite interesting: http://www.stuckism.com/remod.html

Personally, I'd suggest writing what you want to write and letting what's "publishable" take care of itself. There are very few literary movements that are so powerful that they will keep and otherwise strong book from being published. Besides, you're not going to get in front of any cultural trends by asking questions on an internet forum. You either can see where the trends are headed from what's already out there or you can't. By the time you've asked and had the latest thing explained to you, a hundred other people will already have published books in it. So write what you want to write, and let publication or being in front of trends take care of itself.
 

America's Proust

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
84
Reaction score
2
Location
Honolulu, HI
I write postcolonial queer speculative fiction. I've also described my writing as postindian.


Edit: Postindian genderfuck. Yes, that is what I'll call my literary movement. What's yours?

Well, it isn't my movement. I was only four when the Remodernist Manifesto was published online. I was 17 when I found out what it was. I sure do like the idea of bringing spirituality back to art and treating it sincerely instead of ironically. I'm a devout Eastern Orthodox Christian, as is Mrs. "America's Proust." I think that someone like God Almighty is not to be taken ironically.
 
Last edited:

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
Hmm. I don't think sincerity and irony are mutually exclusive.

Irony doesn't imply a lack of sincerity, IMO. Irony isn't solely sarcasm.
 

davidjgalloway

Opus is my guy.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
400
Reaction score
41
Location
Upstate NY
The war wasn't won by one great general's decision, but rather a complex spiderweb of interconnected decisions that the world will never truly understand completely.

Yes, though postmodernism doesn't have a lock or a first-claim on this, Tolstoy built a whole big book (can't remember the name offhand) around it.

It seems to me the democraticization of literature via self-pub and the opening up of formerly strict gatekeeping channels may eventually make the whole thing a pointless game. Consider that past lit movements were defined by (usually) groups in power, who wrote what they wanted (typically excluding vast swaths of their own people), and were of course only concretely defined post-event. Postmodern also is falling apart as a term because casual commenters use it to mean a time period, putting everything post WWI into it despite the fact that the end of a dominant literary movement does not, of course, eliminate its practitioners. You can write a romantic text, a realist text, a symbolist text, a formalist text, and maybe nobody will read it or make it famous, but you can write and publish it. That has to have some effect on the paradigm, yes?

Hello? Guys? Where does literature go from here?

Of course, anywhere, but perhaps the more relevant question--what movement will define itself mainly as a reaction to and repudiation of postmodernism? History suggest that is the form that we will remember as the next to follow. If, as I said above, there is even a single one which can be identified as such.
 

America's Proust

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
84
Reaction score
2
Location
Honolulu, HI
Hmm. I don't think sincerity and irony are mutually exclusive.

Irony doesn't imply a lack of sincerity, IMO. Irony isn't solely sarcasm.

I wasn't trying to suggest that. I was trying to say that there are just things that shouldn't be taken ironically, simply out of respect. That's all. You can be ironic and sincere, but there's the risk of swinging on the pendulum of extremes. Too sincere, and you end up being a theocrat. Too ironic, and you end up an a****** with no friends.
 
Last edited:

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
I sympathized with some of what that Remodernist Manifesto was saying, but I thought it was too narrow to be the successor to postmodernism. Personally I'm an atheist. Although I respect spirituality and religion and think they have a place in post-postmodernism, I don't think they're required.

The modernism rejected by postmodernism has its origins in the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. The main ideas of these movements were humanism and reason.

Postmodernism adheres to the idea that there are some areas of understanding that can't be probed by reason. In fact the foundations of all knowledge lie within these regions, so no knowledge can be founded on reason alone.

In modernism, truth is based on reason.

In postmodernism, there is no truth.

I suggest that in post-postmodernism, we allow for truth that is not based on reason. It can be based on the heart, the soul, divine inspiration. Not only one but any of these things are valid. Unlike reason, these are subjective.

The idea is to keep the humanism, but diminish the emphasis on reason. Humanism is in some sense a competitor to religion, but it is not really contradictory with it. The idea is that some truths can come from within our humanity. This is essentially what I mean by "from the heart".

This in particular rubbed me the wrong way:

Remodernism embodies spiritual depth and meaning and brings to an end an age of scientific materialism, nihilism and spiritual bankruptcy.

Scientific materialism has taken us a long way. We shouldn't throw it out. There are objective scientific truths based on a materialistic conception. I'd even say we should take this as far as we can go with it, and explain as much as we can with scientific materialism. But it doesn't have to be the only source of truth.

Hmm. I don't think sincerity and irony are mutually exclusive.

Irony doesn't imply a lack of sincerity, IMO. Irony isn't solely sarcasm.

Irony has various forms, but what's common among them is the juxtaposition of an idea and its contradiction. I think what's meant by sincerity, here, is a clear and committed choice between the two.

You can have a sincere belief that an idea can coexist with its contradiction, but this is kind of a meta-sincerity.


Apologies if I have hijacked the thread again. I also don't have my own literary movement. I don't consider myself a literary writer. I just write what's in my heart. I'm sure I'm influenced by the times and culture I live in, and it might turn out that I'm in a movement after all. I don't think most people know what movement they're part of. Such categories are defined after the fact.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.