End of Postmodernism?

Postmodernism will come to an end whenever someone can give a straight definition of whatever it means without referring to modernism. In that case, I don't think we're moving into post-postmodernism.

I'm perfectly fine with a discussion of postmodernism wrt literature in this room provided that the discussion is a respectful exchange.

Be prepared to discuss the elements of postmodernism as you understand it and/or to ask for clarification in order to enhance the discussion.

I'm all about precision in the use of language, just so you know upfront. Bring your best, most well-reasoned game to the discussion and accept that the definition of postmodernism varies and is often imprecise.

Again, keep the discussion to the respectful exchange of ideas and we're good to go.

Some definitions to chew on:

Google, at the top:
post·mod·ern·ism
ˌpōs(t)ˈmädərnˌizəm/
noun
noun: postmodernism; noun: post-modernism

• a late-20th-century style and concept in the arts, architecture, and criticism that represents a departure from modernism and has at its heart a general distrust of grand theories and ideologies as well as a problematical relationship with any notion of “art.”
  
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  Merriam-Webster definition of Postmodern:
  
  2 a : of, relating to, or being any of various movements in reaction to modernism that are typically characterized by a return to traditional materials and forms (as in architecture) or by ironic self-reference and absurdity (as in literature) b : of, relating to, or being a theory that involves a radical reappraisal of modern assumptions about culture, identity, history, or language <postmodern feminism>

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And from a PBS glossary:

Postmodernism. A general and wide-ranging term which is applied to literature, art, philosophy, architecture, fiction, and cultural and literary criticism, among others. Postmodernism is largely a reaction to the assumed certainty of scientific, or objective, efforts to explain reality.

Those are decent definitions. The third makes no explicit reference to "modern" or "modernism", and the other two can still stand if theirs are stricken out. Postmodernism really doesn't mean "whatever modernism is not". It is to some extent defined by rejection, but rejection of certain principles that happen to have had currency in the "modern" period, not all such principles.

I don't think there will ever be an "end" to postmodernism. That's like saying an end to Impressionism. Impressionism had a heyday that's over, but there are still artists who prefer that style. And there were artists during its heyday that did not adopt it.

You can always edit your post to include your updated ideas or wording.

Kylabelle said:

Postmodernism is largely a reaction to the assumed certainty of scientific, or objective, efforts to explain reality.

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This is generally the definition that I think of when I think of postmodernism in literature.

I have a little understanding of architecture, and can maybe speak to the "end" of postmodernism in architecture. Again, I'm not sure postmodernism is dead in architecture, but there is active work in "modern" architecture that is neither postmodernist nor modernist in character.

Modernist architecture was characterized by lack of ornamentation. That was not because of a dislike of ostentation, it was because nothing was included unless it could be justified by a rational principle. Modernist architecture was just the natural continuation of the neoclassical architecture that preceded it. Classical / neoclassical architecture emphasized symmetry and other kinds of mathematical order, but modern architecture took it to the extreme, and also new building materials rendered some of the elements that originally had a practical purpose unnecessary, resulting in a very minimalist style.

Postmodernist architecture, of course, eschewed the idea of having any rules.

Post-postmodernist architecture takes a middle road. Rules like "form follows function" are regarded, but not slavishly observed. The subjective effect the building has on the human psyche is considered.

Interesting that most of the definitions tend towards "rejection" or "reaction" to earlier efforts. So maybe modernism is simply "post Impressionism" or whatever came right before it.

Morngnstar, I like your def as per architecture. My father was an architect and he built "modern" buildings. I don't think he worked from principles, but from the taste he had developed. Which is probably how these things work. I read/see something I like and I go from there. Of course, there are those "mavericks" who start the change in taste by ignoring current standards and making something that everyone suddenly realizes they were looking for without knowing it.

MOD NOTE: I'm willing to allow a brief excursion into postmodernism as it relates to other art forms as long as the excursion is brief and informs a basic understanding of the tenets of postmodernism. The meat of the discussion should remain on postmodernism as it relates to literature, though. A basic understanding of all forms of literature is necessary to a writer's education and I see a great deal of value in having a discussion on postmodernism wrt literature. I'd like us to have that discussion.

Interesting. I especially liked how they tied the movement to new social media forms of expression. That gives it some credibility as an up-and-coming movement. Interestingly, whereas I see social media as promoting increased openness and sincerity in the public sphere, I perceive it as influencing a decline in sincerity in private relationships. With social media, everyone is a celebrity. Beyond "Everyone has their fifteen minutes of fame," now everyone has 24/7 of fame. Kids dialed in to social media are now playing a role every minute of their lives, instead of being themselves.

Ari Meermans said:

MOD NOTE: I'm willing to allow a brief excursion into postmodernism as it relates to other art forms as long as the excursion is brief and informs a basic understanding of the tenets of postmodernism. The meat of the discussion should remain on postmodernism as it relates to literature, though. A basic understanding of all forms of literature is necessary to a writer's education and I see a great deal of value in having a discussion on postmodernism wrt literature. I'd like us to have that discussion.

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Sure, but a postmodernist would probably deny that we can draw these clear boundaries between what is literature and what are other forms of expression. All of human experience is "the text".

America's Proust said:

That's a problem with postmodernism, in fact, perhaps the biggest problem. All of human experience being "the text" can have absolutely absurd and painfully obvious contradictions due to the subjectivity of human experience. That's one of the reasons I reject postmodernist thought.

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Huh? Postmodernism digs on subjectivity. "All of human experience" includes every human's different experience.

ETA:

Wait, the first time I read this statement I assumed you were pro-subjectivity. But you never said that, and maybe you're anti-subjectivity and that's why you disagree with postmodernism. That seems consistent, though I don't agree. I'm not a big proponent of postmodernism, but I do embrace subjectivity.

America's Proust said:

That's a problem with postmodernism, in fact, perhaps the biggest problem. All of human experience being "the text" can have absolutely absurd and painfully obvious contradictions due to the subjectivity of human experience. That's one of the reasons I reject postmodernist thought.

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But that's the point. Seemingly-contradictory things can often both be true, because they're subjective.

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America's Proust said:

IMO, after the September 11 2001 attacks, the postmodernist use of unrestrained irony is completely inappropriate. It just seems completely callous, considering the postmodernist rejects absolute truth, even when said truth is self-evident by definition.

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I don't follow your reasoning. How is irony inappropriate?

When I brought up "all of human experience" I was referring more to the idea that a pick-up line delivered in a bar has a priori as much status as literature as does a poem published in a bound book. Or that the way you mow your lawn qualifies as art. Such things are subjective, and I think most people can agree appropriately so. Everyone's pick-up line is different, or at least everyone's delivery or reception of a pick-up line is different.

I'm also dubious about the idea that you can be subjective about statements like "The Earth is an oblate spheroid," or "All integers are either even or odd." I think extreme postmodernists might defend that those are subjective, but I don't think there's much value in looking at things that way.

America's Proust said:

If two things are contradictory, then, logically, one has to be false by definition.

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But not all truths are logical. Logic doesn't apply everywhere.

IME, human experience is rarely logical.

America's Proust said:

I think it's a little on the pretentious side for those fellows to say that the way one mows his lawn qualifies as art ...

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Might you also say that it's more than "a little on the pretentious side" for someone to claim that the way one mows their lawn might never qualify as art?

America's Proust said:

... You can't exactly display that in the Chicago Art Institute.

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But you can apparently display chairs: http://www.artic.edu/exhibition/design-episodes-modern-chair

Have you never seen what can be done creatively with a very large lawn?