School Shooting? (Madison Ohio)

Kansas had a workplace shooting 6 days ago, 4 dead, 19 wounded. The shooter was an ex-con with a long and violent record. The guns, three I think, one of them an automatic, came from his girlfriend. She bought them legally. There is a video on the internet of him shooting up a stubble field that bordered a public road. The video didn't raise any concerns because hundreds of gun toting Kansans shoot up old barns and creek banks every weekend. Now, the public did become concerned after he started shooting up cars on his way to work. Law enforcement discovered that the girlfriend had given him the guns. (Something she should have remembered before leaving him and serving him with papers for custody of their kids.) They locked her up on charges of supplying guns to a felon. Would you believe that some people are taking up for her? She might lose her day care license. --s6

Zoombie said:

According to Republicans? Voting.

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If you want to troll-bait with political-party-fighting, go for it. I posted a LEGAL question, not a political one.

Zoombie said:

But more to the point: What other right in the constitution can kill a dozen people at the drop of a hat?

Hell, even shouting fire in the theater takes longer than opening up on a crowd with an automatic weapon.

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Neither of which answer the question. The right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right. Until such time as a Democrat President appoints (and gets confirmed) someone (or several?) sufficiently far to the left and the USSC takes on another 2nd Amendment case, that's an individual right. The (rightly or wrongly) perceived lethality of that right does not alter that it *is* a right.

blacbird said:

Not according to the Almighty Gun Lobby. The NRA's ubiquitous recommendation for improvement is "more guns".

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I'm not the NRA, nor have I defended them. As far as I'm concerned, this is, at best, a non sequitir.

robjvargas said:

If you want to troll-bait with political-party-fighting, go for it. I posted a LEGAL question, not a political one.

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That voting is a Constitutional right being restricted through the enactment of some laws (such as voter ID) and the rolling back of others (such as the Voting Rights Act) is as much a legal issue as a political one. It's also not a question as to which political party is more focused on voting restrictions, just as it's not a question as to which political party consistently pushes for stronger restrictions on gun ownership. However, I think we should ask ourselves why we aren't defending the right to vote with the same energy that we defend the right to own guns.

I hope she does lose her day care license.

That Kansas situation is beyond insane to me.

LittlePinto said:

However, I think we should ask ourselves why we aren't defending the right to vote with the same energy that we defend the right to own guns.

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Because this thread is concerned with use of guns? Motivated by lethal use of same?

Krazy Kansas. Local law enforcement said that they were familiar with the guy. You would think someone from his work would have alerted them to the videos of him with guns, but noooo. My guess is that no one, possibly even LE, wanted to mess with his constitutional rights.

That same week we had two lockdowns in a small town called Maize, also not far from Wichita. One was because a 71 year old man pulled a gun on workers at an estate sale when they--all older females-- refused to help him load a refrigerator that he had bought into a pick up truck. It was posted at the sale that buyers would be responsible for transporting their purchases. This seemed unfair to him, so he pulled a gun and threatened them all. He seemed surprised when the police arrived and took him away in handcuffs. Funny, except it's not. --s6

raburrell said:

Let me know if you'd like me to keep going.

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Yes, I do. Please continue.

To what end? You asked for examples of which gun laws aren't enforced. I provided several. If you'd like to counter those, have at it, but otherwise, you asked a question and I answered it.

blacbird said:

Not according to the Almighty Gun Lobby. The NRA's ubiquitous recommendation for improvement is "more guns".

Although, to a certain extent, I'll say that we really don't have a "gun problem". We have a "people who love guns too damn much problem."

caw

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Ironically, the NRA members usually back increased safety controls. It's the leadership that lobbies otherwise. It's been that way for years.


http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...n-lobby-invincible/nra-members-vs-nra-leaders

A Frank Luntz survey found, for example, that 3 out of every 4 N.R.A. members favored a system that required all prospective gun buyers to pass a criminal background check. In addition, large majorities of N.R.A. members support employee screenings at gun stores, mandating reporting of stolen firearms, prohibiting people on the terrorist watch list from purchasing firearms and prohibiting violent misdemeanants from receiving permits to carry concealed guns. These measures are not in place in most states and are vigorously opposed by N.R.A. leaders and lobbyists.

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raburrell said:

To what end? You asked for examples of which gun laws aren't enforced. I provided several. If you'd like to counter those, have at it, but otherwise, you asked a question and I answered it.

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Then why did you say you could keep going? I'll get around to them when I have a chance, but I don't understand why you would offer if you had no intention of continuing. Were you just being rude?

I'd like to understand whether you're asking for a reason or for a wild goosechase.

On the off chance you're asking sincerely, start here: http://content.thirdway.org/publica...nforcement_Gap_-_Federal_Gun_Laws_Ignored.pdf

Comprehensive report showing how 20 of 22 Federal Gun Laws received no prosecutions whatsoever.

In addition to the items I discussed above, it mentions things like lack of prosecutions for sales to minors, obliterated serial numbers, etc.

If you still think that by failing to update your license, and being surprised when someone asks you for proof you are who you say, this proves that gun laws really are enforced, then yeah, I can't help you further.

Well, in answer to your first link, Raburrell, it doesn't say that they aren't prosecuted, it says it is difficult to convict them, because it is hard to prove. That's not the same thing as not enforcing the law. It was hard to prosecute Al Capone, but people still attempted it. It wasn't like he was without police scrutiny.

Your second link seems essentially the same-- there not being a requirement for people to report stolen firearms seems like it should be addressed, but that isn't the same thing as people not being prosecuted for actually committing crimes related to guns. Hell, your own article mentions the ATF convicted 55,000 people between 2005 and 2010 for an average of 15 years each.

And as far as the regulations are concerned, I agree that they should all be enforced, but I also think there's a world of difference between failing an audit as a dealer (which should cost you your license but not result in prison time, IMO) and an individual committing an actual gun crime.

Your contention was that gun laws are enforced - the links I've provided show otherwise. Individual crimes committed with guns are not equivalent to our body of gun control law. At this point, if you still believe these laws are enforced, the burden of proof is on you to back up your statement.

I thought I just did. Your links didn't say they aren't enforced, but that convictions are difficult. That's not the same thing.

Then you didn't read them.
Example: juveniles commit 93,000 gun crimes each year. It is a felony to sell a handgun to a minor. The last link you asked for had the numbers on how often that's prosecuted (spoiler alert: practically never).

Anything else?

Is that report over a decade old?

raburrell said:

Then you didn't read them.
Example: juveniles commit 93,000 gun crimes each year. It is a felony to sell a handgun to a minor. The last link you asked for had the numbers on how often that's prosecuted (spoiler alert: practically never).

Anything else?

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I read the first two, admittedly not the third. But didn't really feel the need to since the first two didn't support your argument. Oh well.

I'm still trying to figure out how links which you agree say that the laws aren't enforced because prosecutions are difficult mean that the laws are indeed enforced.

Am sorta guessing that might be the real problem here...

You said law enforcement need to enforce the laws. Law enforcement do enforce the laws-- arrests are an example of law enforcement enforcing the laws. Prosecutors having difficulty getting a conviction is not an example of laws not being enforced, it is a failure of those prosecutors to prosecute. You seem to think the courts and the police are the same thing, and they aren't. The ATF can arrest people all day long, and they are doing their job. They aren't falling asleep on the job just because the lawyers are.

Or do you think that 100 percent of arrests should end in a conviction? Because frankly that's a frightening way to want our legal system to work.

JHFC said:

You said law enforcement need to enforce the laws. Law enforcement do enforce the laws-- arrests are an example of law enforcement enforcing the laws. Prosecutors having difficulty getting a conviction is not an example of laws not being enforced, it is a failure of those prosecutors to prosecute. You seem to think the courts and the police are the same thing, and they aren't. The ATF can arrest people all day long, and they are doing their job. They aren't falling asleep on the job just because the lawyers are.

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This was your original post:

JHFC said:

I don't know where you are getting this information from. In my state (one of the laxer states regarding gun laws), you can get a year in prison for have a concealed weapon without a permit. And it is a felony to have one if you are a felon. What gun laws do you think aren't enforced? I mean, like any other law, law enforcement has to know about a violation before they can do anything, but I've never seen anyone back off on enforcing gun laws. Hell, I almost couldn't buy my last one because I had recently moved and my ID didn't match the address I had written down; luckily I had another form of ID that had the correct information. Trust me, the most serious people about gun laws and gun safety are gun people.

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My bold, which I've answered several times. The third link makes a clear delineation between arrests and prosecutions, and how the numbers have increased, decreased, or stagnated by various administrations. It's not 'lawyers falling asleep on the job', nor is the difficulty of prosecution the only angle affecting things - lack of resources, lack of will, and in some cases, statutes which were intentionally written to be unenforceable, because certain interests do not really want them addressed (all mentioned in the first link, which you said you read).

Or do you think that 100 percent of arrests should end in a conviction? Because frankly that's a frightening way to want our legal system to work.

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Especially when the links I've provided suggest nothing of the sort, it'd be great if you'd stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Again, demonstrate the converse - provide some data showing that these laws are being regularly enforced.

I did. With your own posts. You don't get it. That's ok, I have other things o can do than post in this thread.

Okay. You've demonstrated that laws are regularly enforced by agreeing they're not enforced. Got it.

kuwisdelu said:

Maybe we should only sell guns to people who don't like them.

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*Carries it gingerly between thumb and forefinger and tries to flush it down toilet, like she might a dead cockroach*

Evidently, guns trigger the same "Eeeeeek" circuitry in the brain as do snakes and spiders. Syringes do too, apparently.

Oh, and having a gun in the car seems to increase the likelihood of road rage incidents. No idea if having a snake or a syringe in the car produces the same effect.

Following along with the idea of enforcing laws, it seems that Butler County SO has charged 2 14-year-old boys with failure to report a crime, since the shooter showed them the gun earlier in the day.

I'd like to see more of this.