Pope Francis tells Trump that he's no Christian

MonsterTamer · Feb 19, 2016

DancingMaenid said:
Is it my imagination, or has Trump said in the past that he's not religious? That's what gives me pause about Trump courting Evangelicals. I could have sworn he wasn't religious at all before he got into politics.

That's not exactly the issue. The issue is that Christians are stuck between a rock and hard place. I know zero Christians who support Trump. But when given a choice between Trump (presuming he actually wins the nomination) and Hillary or a Socialist (Bernie) they throw up their hands. Trump, in their estimation, is the lesser of two evils.

Which is a horrifying position for America to find itself in. For the vast majority of voters to have to sit down and actually think to themselves, "Who will cause the least amount of damage?" not, "Who is best qualified."

waylander · Feb 19, 2016

How many of Trump's supporters realise the Pope is Catholic?

nighttimer · Feb 19, 2016

Diana Hignutt said:
ETA: I apologize for paying any attention to that professor of obsolete Roman-revamped Bronze Age Bullshit and his misogynistic, homophobic and transphobic, pedophile club.

If that's supposed to be an apology to the Pope, the Catholic Church and their followers, it seems to be missing something...

Alessandra Kelley · Feb 19, 2016

Maxinquaye said:
I don't think Francis was talking to Trump. I think he was talking to Poland and other countries, by way of Trump. The Pope is a Jesuit. He thinks two steps ahead of most people. I doubt he's interested in a brash loud-mouth Billionaire who isn't even a Catholic. It's also unclear how Trump could win a general election. This is why I think Francis used the bully pulpit of the papacy to reach a much more malleable target, the Polish and the deeply Catholic east Europeans.

Oh, that's a really interesting take!

The Pope, after all, speaks to an international audience and has to be aware of that all the time.

Looking at the actual quote again

A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel.

I think you may be right.

I suspect this is less aimed at the US's political weasel-toupéed celeb and more at Poland, Hungary, Austria, and other Eastern European, largely Catholic countries, who have recently been putting up razor wire, electric walls, armed patrols, etc. against refugee women, children, babies, and families attempting to flee the genocide and civil war in Syria.

To make it about Trump and all about Trump is kind of a Trump move actually.

MonsterTamer · Feb 19, 2016

Alessandra Kelley said:
To make it about Trump and all about Trump is kind of a Trump move actually.

I'm pretty sure it's the only move he's got.

rugcat · Feb 19, 2016

MonsterTamer said:
That's not exactly the issue. The issue is that Christians are stuck between a rock and hard place. I know zero Christians who support Trump. But when given a choice between Trump (presuming he actually wins the nomination) and Hillary or a Socialist (Bernie) they throw up their hands. Trump, in their estimation, is the lesser of two evils.

Which is a horrifying position for America to find itself in. For the vast majority of voters to have to sit down and actually think to themselves, "Who will cause the least amount of damage?" not, "Who is best qualified."

Perhaps the problem is not so much with America as it is with the public and their perceptions.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

-- Winston Churchhill

cornflake · Feb 19, 2016

MonsterTamer said:
That's not exactly the issue. The issue is that Christians are stuck between a rock and hard place. I know zero Christians who support Trump. But when given a choice between Trump (presuming he actually wins the nomination) and Hillary or a Socialist (Bernie) they throw up their hands. Trump, in their estimation, is the lesser of two evils.

Which is a horrifying position for America to find itself in. For the vast majority of voters to have to sit down and actually think to themselves, "Who will cause the least amount of damage?" not, "Who is best qualified."

When was the last election you can think of when that was not the case?

MonsterTamer · Feb 19, 2016

cornflake said:
When was the last election you can think of when that was not the case?

Sometimes I see candidates who I think are actually qualified. At least somewhat, thought they do not tend to be Dems or Repulicans, and have no chance.

And yes, many people feel this way every cycle. But it seems to me that the people I know who lean right tend to stand behind their candidates with much more conviction than they will this time around.

ETA: And this could be a slow, insidious decline of my tolerance for such nonsense as I age.

Diana Hignutt · Feb 19, 2016

nighttimer said:
If that's supposed to be an apology to the Pope, the Catholic Church and their followers, it seems to be missing something...

My apology was to all AW members, not to His "Holiness", his club, or its followers. However, as a show of good faith, I further apologize especially to our Catholic AW members with actual sincerity (which I can rarely muster these days) for the line you quoted.

Zoombie · Feb 19, 2016

MonsterTamer said:
That's not exactly the issue. The issue is that Christians are stuck between a rock and hard place. I know zero Christians who support Trump. But when given a choice between Trump (presuming he actually wins the nomination) and Hillary or a Socialist (Bernie) they throw up their hands. Trump, in their estimation, is the lesser of two evils.

Well, this is just me...but...every single Christian I know on facebook thinks that socialism and Christianity pretty much want the same thing and are pretty on board with Bernie.

Feeding the poor, sheltering the homeless, that kind of thing.

RedRajah · Feb 19, 2016

RichardGarfinkle said:
So, will anti-immigration Catholics listen?

That would be a big "NO", if my brother-in-laws are any indication.

(not that they're voting for Trump either)

Williebee · Feb 19, 2016

MonsterTamer said:
That's not exactly the issue. The issue is that Christians are stuck between a rock and hard place. I know zero Christians who support Trump.

I personallyknow a score of Christians who are Trump supporters. (Since we're doing anecdotals here.) I don't personally know of any Christians capable of thinking for themselves or higher level reasoning skills who are Trump supporters, but still...

Christians aren't stuck between a rock and a hard place. At least no more so than every other voter.

ErezMA · Feb 19, 2016

I saw this on Facebook today and found a funny comment,

"Who the hell is The Pope to call Trump not a Christian?!"

I'm thinking to myself, "If any human out there has any ability to judge someone as a Christian or not, surely it's the frickin' pope, right?" I'm not a Christian. Sure, I'm born with Jewish blood and I know a bit about that, but I'm not much of a religious man, at least in the Judeo-Christian realm. With that being said, I get the whole "gist" or what Christianity is about. (Love thy neighbor, be good to one another, etc...) Most of us can agree that Trump doesn't fit this mold. It sure as hell doesn't from where I'm standing.

clintl · Feb 19, 2016

To be fair to Trump, what he said was that he thought it was disgraceful for a religious leader to be questioning anyone's faith. It's perfectly acceptable for fake Christian lay people who can't correctly cite Biblical verses to do so.

James D. Macdonald · Feb 19, 2016

You don't need the Pope to tell you that Trump is no Christian.

Celia Cyanide · Feb 19, 2016

waylander said:
How many of Trump's supporters realise the Pope is Catholic?

Is it really possibly for anyone not to realize this?

Roxxsmom · Feb 19, 2016

BoF said:
Earlier in the campaign Trump questioned Ben Carson's Seventh Day Adventist faith, comparing it his own "mainstream" Presbyterian faith. He also said of Ted Cruz that not many evangelicals come out of Cuba. So, Trump's hands aren't completely clean.

But he said it was especially bad for a religious leader to question another man's faith, so the Pope is a bigger meeny head than Trump!

As far as the statement by Pope Francis, I am not sure he was saying that Trump the man was not Christian or (a) Christian, but the specific act of building walls rather than bridges was not Christian.

I'd agree with this, or perhaps he was saying it was hypocritical for a man who considered himself to be a Christian (it was news to me that Trump was running on that platform) to be proposing such a move.

ErezMA said:
I'm thinking to myself, "If any human out there has any ability to judge someone as a Christian or not, surely it's the frickin' pope, right?"

Well, it depends on your perspective and denomination. Some protestant denominations traditionally consider the pope to be an impostor or a false prophet (if not one step away from the anti-Christ) and Catholicism itself to be a debased and corrupt version of Christianity at best. We don't hear as much from those quarters as we used to in politics, but I've known people who sincerely believe that all "papists" are idol-worshipers who will burn in hell.

I don't think most protestants feel this way nowadays, but the Pope certainly has no moral authority over Christians who aren't Roman Catholic, in any case. Which might be the point the person on FB was making (unless they were being sarcastic).

I totally agree that Trump pretending to be a man of faith all of a sudden is pretty silly.

Lyv said:
Trump may or may not be a Christian, but he's now got something in common with every self-identified Christian on the planet: another Christians says he isn't one.

QFT

Latina Bunny · Feb 20, 2016

Regardless of whether he's a Christian or not, Trump is still a jerk, lol.

I do feel for Trump on being judged on whether or not he's a Christian. Like Lyv said, this is something many self-identified Christians (or self-identified religious people) have to deal with in life...

cornflake · Feb 20, 2016

Celia Cyanide said:
Is it really possibly for anyone not to realize this?

Again, the question involved Trump supporters.

T Robinson · Feb 20, 2016

Celia Cyanide said:
Is it really possibly for anyone not to realize this?

Yes. There are some really ignorant (in the sense of un-educated or un-knowing) out there. Anecdotal, but I have seen/heard/talked to them.

ErezMA · Feb 21, 2016

Roxxsmom said:
Well, it depends on your perspective and denomination. Some protestant denominations traditionally consider the pope to be an impostor or a false prophet (if not one step away from the anti-Christ) and Catholicism itself to be a debased and corrupt version of Christianity at best. We don't hear as much from those quarters as we used to in politics, but I've known people who sincerely believe that all "papists" are idol-worshipers who will burn in hell.

I don't think most protestants feel this way nowadays, but the Pope certainly has no moral authority over Christians who aren't Roman Catholic, in any case. Which might be the point the person on FB was making (unless they were being sarcastic).

You're right, although I'd like to believe (please let me know if I'm wrong) that many non-Catholic Christians have some reverence and respect for The Pope, regardless of if they agree with all the customs of the Roman Catholic Church. I don't believe that there are a lot of people that think the Pope is one-off from the Anti-Christ.

Personally, I think Pope Francis is one of the most Christian popes out there, in terms of behavior. All coming from a man who knows little about Christianity.

blacbird · Feb 21, 2016

bunny-gypsy said:
Regardless of whether he's a Christian or not, Trump is still a jerk, lol.

I can find nothing in the Holy Scriptures saying anything negative about jerks.

Unfortunately.

caw

Lillith1991 · Feb 21, 2016

blacbird said:
I can find nothing in the Holy Scriptures saying anything negative about jerks.

Unfortunately.

caw

They're in direct violation of the verses talking about loving your fellow man. Also, by some interpretations Sodom and its sibbling city were destroyed because they were asshats.

frimble3 · Feb 21, 2016

Well, the Pope telling Trump he's no Christian is probably more of an 'off-the-cuff' remark than 'ex cathedra', but I'll bet all the non-Christian religions are sending up prayers of thanksgiving that Trump isn't one of theirs.

Diana Hignutt · Feb 22, 2016

Still, the Pope is guilty of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Can we all agree on that?

Pope Francis tells Trump that he's no Christian

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