Azoth Khem Publishing

James D. Macdonald said:

Hunh?

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Ah. It's from their Facebook post:

Authors beware of spamming from an individual posting: Azoth Khem Publishing's terms and conditions, which appear to have been taken almost word from another website, are currently being discussed on AbsoluteWrite:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php…
I suggest author stop trying to undermine each other and phishing for what some have called anti-author campaigns, and actually try writing a book. Naysayers are really not interesting for very long. Don't work with us - It is not a problem for us as much as it seems to be with you.

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That post invites the question of whether English is the poster's first language.

They used unnecessary quotation marks, and thus are dead to me.

ETA: You're not seeing double. I simply had to add that to my signature.

I wanna know the agent. NOW I'm interested.

If the poster has an effective agent, why did they start their own press? There are plenty of existing Wiccan, fantasy, and horror outlets that publish and sell.

ETA: after a quick foray down the active lava tube, no, I'm not interested. Filigree's Rule has saved me yet again.

Authors considering this press, please note the aforementioned contract terms. Those are dangerous enough with the major media agencies who use them as legal shields for theft. How much more so, with a group of possibly well-meaning people who nevertheless seem to have no idea about effective publishing? If you are Wiccan, don't buy into the affinity language. Look at established presses first, and give these folks a year or two to prove themselves.

Filigree said:

... and give these folks a year or two to prove themselves.

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Um, I don't get this. Go with more established presses, fine. Don't go with Azoth, fine. Don't. Their contract isn't beneficial to writers. Fine.

But, how do they prove themselves if everyone passes them by for a year. Or, do you mean for them to cut their teeth on the people not diligent in their research? I have no skin in this game as I don't write what they publish. But, every time one of these fly-by-night publishers pop up the word is to give them time to prove themselves. If the only people who use them are those who don't do research anyway, how do they go about proving themselves?

Sorry, I'm feeling ornery. Feel free to ignore me. LOL.

David

Dhewco said:

Um, I don't get this. Go with more established presses, fine. Don't go with Azoth, fine. Don't. Their contract isn't beneficial to writers. Fine.

But, how do they prove themselves if everyone passes them by for a year. Or, do you mean for them to cut their teeth on the people not diligent in their research? I have no skin in this game as I don't write what they publish. But, every time one of these fly-by-night publishers pop up the word is to give them time to prove themselves. If the only people who use them are those who don't do research anyway, how do they go about proving themselves?

Sorry, I'm feeling ornery. Feel free to ignore me. LOL.

David

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I'd suggest that proving themselves is the publisher's problem. It's the same for every business.

It's like setting a soda can aside if you think someone's shaken it. If it's fine, it'll still be fine when you go back to it. If someone did mess with it and someone else opens it... at least it doesn't explode all over you.

Some new publishers have made deals with established authors for their new books. Others have new authors, but good plans in place for them. A surprising number implode within the first few years...

Dhewco said:

Um, I don't get this. Go with more established presses, fine. Don't go with Azoth, fine. Don't. Their contract isn't beneficial to writers. Fine.

But, how do they prove themselves if everyone passes them by for a year. Or, do you mean for them to cut their teeth on the people not diligent in their research? I have no skin in this game as I don't write what they publish. But, every time one of these fly-by-night publishers pop up the word is to give them time to prove themselves. If the only people who use them are those who don't do research anyway, how do they go about proving themselves?

Sorry, I'm feeling ornery. Feel free to ignore me. LOL.

David

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Hi David,

I used to wonder about this all the time too. How can one get experience if one doesn't have authors? I may be wrong but I think the message is not that they are a new publisher but that there are other flags that suggest they aren't someone to start with.

A few things:
1) From the fabulous aliceshortcake: "AKP had to steal their terms and conditions from Archaia Entertainment, a company that specializes in graphic novels, I think there's a good chance that they don't really understand them either."
2) Non-author friendly provisions in the contract
3) How the present themselves online - website, social media, here and so on.
4) Do they share publishing background of the principals and people who work for them?
5) Do they have publishing experience?

Any or all of those can suggest a publisher is not a place to publish with (and AKH has several).

It's not solely because they are new (although others do feel that way); it's because they start with red flags.

That's my thought, anyway, as to what waiting means to me when I see it.

Dhewco said:

Um, I don't get this. Go with more established presses, fine. Don't go with Azoth, fine. Don't. Their contract isn't beneficial to writers. Fine.

But, how do they prove themselves if everyone passes them by for a year. Or, do you mean for them to cut their teeth on the people not diligent in their research? I have no skin in this game as I don't write what they publish. But, every time one of these fly-by-night publishers pop up the word is to give them time to prove themselves. If the only people who use them are those who don't do research anyway, how do they go about proving themselves?

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I've seen plenty of micropresses start out either with the author's own book or a low-risk title like an anthology (one-time rights for a single payment, so if it goes wrong, authors haven't lost much). Quality products and treating authors well creates trust in the community, and allows the publisher to slowly expand. But that only works if the founders have the skills to put out that quality product, the personality not to make everyone hate them on social media, and a solid business plan.

In this case, their business plan looks pretty non-existent. Also, Kasey Hill's books aren't doing well. She has very few reviews/ratings and the sort of Amazon ranking that means she sells a book here and there. I'm in that boat too, as are many self-publishers, so this wouldn't be a problem if she was just publishing herself. But once you open up to publishing other people, you'd better be successful, or you're taking them down with you.

I'll jump back in and contrast this (unfairly, I'll admit) with a new erotic romance publisher called NineStar Press. They take a limited number of genres. I was satisfied with the bio information and CVs given to me when I asked, because that seemed to show the principals knew the erotic romance market fairly well and had a lot of experience...with good publishers and bad, so they knew what to avoid. Their contract terms were reasonable. Their covers and marketing have been pretty good. Even then, I gave them *one* novella in a genre that I enjoy but isn't next to my heart like SFF. I'll probably give them two more novellas in the same series, just to round it out. So far, it's doing okay...but I have not committed my life's work to this new publisher.

Dhewco, I understand your confusion. The soda-can analogy is blunt but true...better to let the unstable environment blow up around someone else.

Do I feel a little bit of guilt for the unprepared, uneducated writer who falls for sympathetic stories and affinity language? A little. But not to the extent of martyring myself in order to lead the dazed masses away from the tar pits lurking under a glistening cool pond.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to try them. I'd try self-publishing with Kinkos first. (again, they don't publish my genres as far as I know...but still) However, it's crazy to tell people to let them get experience when you recommend no one give them a chance at start-up.

Here's my point.

Tell them not to go with them because of the contract.
Tell them not to go with them because of the attitude of the publisher.
Tell them not to go with them because of the other stuff in this thread.

I just think it's silly to say give them a year first. That's all. The only way they'll be around in a year is if people are too research, um, weak to do their due diligence. I think it's highly unlikely for anything to change in a year that will make them publishers to pass muster. Their attitude is such that they're not going to make changes and I suspect that they don't have capital to make any decent changes anyway.

I'm sorry if I'm harping on the "...wait for a year phrase", but it bugs me for some reason. I think I'll go back to lurking.

Or not.

David

ETA: I guess I'm saying it's simply improbable anything's changing in a year...so why say it? Just give them the reasons not to go.

A year is an eyeblink in publishing terms. AK will easily be around in a year if they find enough new people to bite at the bait, and keep doing so. A certain subset of writers in *all* genres are so desperate to say they've been published, they'll try anything.

It took Musa Publishing a little more than a year for cynical little me to start seeing problems, and at the time I wondered if it was just me. Six months later, I knew it wasn't. It took them another two or three years to fold. By the grace of the second-best rejection letter in my life, I did not leave my debut novel with Musa.

In NineStar's case I was willing to waive my usual year wait because the odds were decent and I'm not risking a lot. In Azoth Khem's case, there are a lot of other red flags besides their newness.

Dhewco said:

However, it's crazy to tell people to let them get experience when you recommend no one give them a chance at start-up.

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It's not quite as black and white as that. A new publisher with experienced editors, with authors, marketing, distribution, etc. already lined up at the start, is worth considering. Everything else being equal, it's still better to go with an established publisher, because the attrition rate amongst new publishers is terrible, but it can be worth a shot.

However, if there are signs that the new publisher didn't plan ahead, has little to no experience, or has other problems, then you'd better look elsewhere. If they are still around in two years time, then you should be able to tell from their output whether they know what they are doing.

Unfair to the start-up? Not in my opinion: they are judged by their experience and competence, as far as we can determine it. And if we cannot determine these, then the publisher likely lacks them (or, at best, they were not prepared to go public, which is not a good sign either).

The previous blog on the same site: http://kaseyhillauthor.com/2015/12/29/why-a-big-company/

After my name gets out there from published material, I do plan on opening a publishing company. This will be for the indie writers and with a higher profit margin on their behalf. They should be able to make nearly as much money as if they self published themselves. WE will see one where everything goes in life

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POD isn't good enough for her but it is for everyone else, apparently. And they have the opportunity to make nearly as much money as if they self publish. Wow, what more incentive could you want?

Extremely.

Look, I will champion informed self-publishing. It exists, and it didn't when I started writing umpteen dozen years ago. It has saved too many of my midlist friends. And there is nothing wrong with someone forming a small publishing company to help get their own work out into the world. The problem comes when they start trying to publish other people. I'm watching a small press right now on behalf of a friend. The press owner/founding author has come out of the gate with sterling credentials, great marketing, and strong sales. As much as any small publisher can be a safe bet, that one seems to have a good trajectory.

Also, I have to laugh at the Kasey Hill quote "What if I spend a year trying..." I repeat, a year is an eyeblink in publishing. A year is what I've given myself to go through all 24 names on an agent-then-publisher list, for a big fantasy novel. If I get no viable targets, then I'll swing back to the self-publishing I'd planned to do in 2013.

Is there room in the occult market for new players? Sure. The more the merrier. But they'd best be very aware of the delicate balance between enthusiasm, experience, and karma.

Yeah, I'm going back to lurking in the Azoth thread. I wish them the best. If they prove me wrong and become a publisher Filigree can approve, well...I'll eat something disgusting.

How does a new publisher make it, if no one is supposed to submit to them for the first two years?

Here's the core truth: "Publisher" is not an entry-level position.

Someone who is going to be a real publisher has already earned a reputation inside of publishing, and has well-established authors who know them and trust them. Readers will buy books from authors they know. That start-up press will have a list of established authors with books already promised on the day they open their doors, and predictable sales.

New publisher with established authors works fine. They can get distribution, they will get sales.

Old publisher with new authors works fine. They have distribution, and can get sales.

Unknown publisher with unknown authors doesn't work too well. No distribution, no sales.

So, if you're a new writer, wait for that unknown publisher to become an old(er) publisher: two years to see if they can get that distribution and make those sales. Meanwhile, there are lots of other publishers that do have good reputations. You can afford to wait the two years to see if this new press is still standing.

Let me point out one more thing.

You spend days, weeks, months crafting the best book that you can. You put all you can into making it the best that you can because it's YOUR book. Not your friend's, not your mother's, not your spouse's. YOUR book.

Why wouldn't you want the best for it? Why wouldn't you try to place it with an established publisher instead of letting it be the test pilot for an untried publisher who may or may not know what they're doing and who may end up dragging it down along with all your hopes and dreams for said book?

Do what's the best for you and your book.

If Azoth Khem was only one of say even 50 publishers, might be worth the risk but good grief, there are TONS out there now, more established and well-known that have proven their worth or don't have the red flags Azoth does why would an author risk it? If you had the choice between a new publishers who has some credentials/experience, an author-friendly contract and reader friendly website against a publisher who doesn't have any of that who would you pick with the book you worked hard to write?

That's the choice authors have with Azoth and all of the other publishers. So for me, it's not about the one or two years--it's about everything else that matters more.

P.S. I read her blog posting. People can change their mind. If it was me, I'd spell out why I changed my mind. However, it is funny that she's so down on POD, etc. and then forms her own POD press.

Azoth Khem recently had their One Year Anniversary.

I was referred to them by a writer I trust and he told me the reason he worked with them was because they were the only people he trusted with his work.

I'll admit this is the first novella I've tried to find a home for and it's been rough finding somebody who is currently accepting horror/urban fantasy novellas. I was looking into these folks and I found this thread, which has a lot of criticism, and so now I'm nervous.

One thing I've noticed is how there is a lot of fighting going on between a few publishers. A war, really. Lawsuits, all kinds of hideous accusations, just insane comments, and from what I can gather AKP has worked with some writers involved with that but managed to stay out of the fray.

I guess I should just admit I'm confused and maybe keep looking. But I've noticed nobody has a horror story about AKP, just a bunch of red flags. That means something, too.

The covers are still awful. The first book I looked at had multiple errors in spelling, grammar and layout.

ETA: They're not confined to the first one.

Helix said:

The covers are still awful. The first book I looked at had multiple errors in spelling, grammar and layout.

ETA: They're not confined to the first one.

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That's not good. Not at all.

I should have listened to the advice given here. Based on the word of a friend, I gave them a chance. I submitted my novella, and it was never acknowledged. After 90 days, I sent a query, which also was not acknowledge or answered in any way. I gave them 60 days to respond to the query and they didn't, so I just sent them an e-mail rescinding my submission. Lesson learned.

On the whole, that's probably a lucky thing they didn't respond. For me, no-response is okay with queries after a certain elapsed time. Imagine how that plays out when they ignore their authors?