yes, that's fair enough. And I missed this bit
Which is perfectly true.
Writers who don't connect
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yes, that's fair enough. And I missed this bit
Which is perfectly true.
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But understanding how people work is not just about watching them and talking to them directly, face-to-face. I'd rather think I'd be more limited if I isolated my knowledge of human experience to my direct environs and the people in them. Reading about, or accounts by, or watching footage of, or being told indirectly about other humans who are in different parts of the world or may be long dead is, I think, a huge part of this. Spreading the net of interaction on the internet as well as accessing all sorts of written and visual information about human cultures past and present, near and far, real and fictional, is not inconsequential. In this, at least in my personal anecdotal experience, I find there is no age commonality as far as exposure. I have met plenty of intelligent young people and ignorant old people and vice versa, and everything in between.
But being on the phone or the internet doesn't exclude other interpersonal experiences, and reading text about other people's experiences can be informative in more ways than listening. People expose different parts of themselves all the time depending on what they want you to see, not just on the internet. Which parts of yourself you show depend on social context. I hide quite a lot of myself out there in the real world because the blander and quieter I am the easier it is to get along with people. If they think me strange, I take a gamble on how easy things are in the workplace, with my family, etc.
Maybe the questions are coming of an increasing understanding that basic human psychology isn't always a constant and there is wider variation than we previously realized. I don't know. With more information comes more variables and more uncertainty, I find.
Well, new writers are new, too. It's hard to write.
If it is increasing, there could be a number of reasons. Could be the above--access to more information actually causes more uncertainty rather than less. I find that learning is as much about unlearning what I thought I knew as taking in new information.
Could be the more recent above--just newness to the craft, and more new people flooding in. Population expansion, widespread literacy, the speed of typing, the ease of access to information on writing itself, the ability to put your writing on the internet alone; the access to storytelling itself becoming overwhelming; more writers, more outlets of expression, more media, more of everything. More questions.
Could be a false impression.
Could be that people are more willing to question their own notions.
I don't know, but my feeling is that understanding or not understanding how humans work is not a thing governed solely by how much we talk to people face-to-face, but our own exposure and the way we as individuals process everything input into our senses. That exposure is varied. Exposure includes the internet, books, movies, documentaries, lectures, seeing artifacts, reading tweets, going new places, talking to new people, hearing new stories, and probably more things than I can even think of. And how we interpret those things is as much a part of our understanding as the exposure itself.
Just IMO, of course.
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Huh. Not going to lie, in college courses I was pretty dang distracted by my phone... but me being distracted during class was definitely not anything new. During high school classes where phone rules were really strict, I'd write, draw, and even sleep during class, but I didn't use my phone. I wonder if it's not that students are more distracted or if it's just a lot easier to tell when someone's on their phone than if their lecture notes are secretly Draco/Harry fanfiction.
The irony of your observation is that new writers have always had this trouble, but with the internet it can now be discussed on internet forums frequented by thousands of people so we're more aware of it. In the past it was limited to book circles of maybe a dozen and writer's magazines where articles and letters to the editor are vetted prior to publication. Any question too basic for the magazine's readership would likely not be printed. Places like AW, no question is too basic and unless it violate the site's rules gets posted and discussed.
You're assuming everyone has a filter and only puts online what they want you to see. The ease of putting stuff out causes a trend where rougher, less thought out, and more extemporaneous material gets online, particularly in interpersonal relationships. Many would cheer the invention of a "recall" button on emails and texts.
If new writers are indeed more confused about interpersonal relationships, I think it has more to do with a general drawing inward as a culture. Every community organization I get involved with complains about declining membership. A parent's social life revolves around the kids' activities rather than community. People just don't joins stuff anymore. We choose to use the devices mainly because they allow us to be connected to others while doing our own thing. Facebook wouldn't have a billion users if you didn't connect to people more easily than writing them letters or calling on the phone.
This is true, and an astute observation. As just one example, I served on a jury last summer, and our jury break room overlooked a restaurant that, some years back, had taken over the local Elks Club lodge building. I made a casual remark about that, and another guy on the jury said he had been a member of the Elks, but declining membership simply cause the group to fold. It used to be a kind of family thing, where children followed parents into groups like these, but that just isn't happening any longer. I suspect this is a widespread phenomenon over a lot of varied social organizations.
Mr. Zuckerberg's club seems to be the exception.
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I took the tube the other day and looked at everyone sitting or standing staring into their phones, and it was great. Finally a socially acceptable way of "not being here". Some people are able to handle being "in the moment", "fully present", but a lot, perhaps the vast majority, can't handle it, and now they have this outlet, this crutch, which helps them NOT be fully present.
I think this really lowers the general vibe of anxiety in social situations now. People who had to constantly keep themselves from "doing something stupid", or feeling "OMG everybody is looking at me", or having to go through the day muffled in some substance-based way, now have the opportunity to simply switch on the "I'm not here" signal by staring at their phone, and keep broadcasting that signal as long as needed.
Concerning the human condition--I've always had the intuition of a brick, and first had to read a description in a psychological textbook, or in a realist novel, before realizing that said behavior exists and has this and this function, and has been around me all along. So it gets added to my database and now the perceptive filter recognizes it.
Some of us exist in a pretty strong cocoon that filters the world to this extent, and we have to cerebrally recognize something before the filter starts showing it. So just watching people or myself is not enough in my case. It has to be supplemented with constant relentless reading of anything from Malinowski and Foucault to Raymond Chandler and Len Deighton, for a synthesis to happen and the new knowledge and perception possibilities to be added to my Self's systems.
In short, my advice would always be read more, read more, read more. Read more.
I think this really lowers the general vibe of anxiety in social situations now. People who had to constantly keep themselves from "doing something stupid", or feeling "OMG everybody is looking at me", or having to go through the day muffled in some substance-based way, now have the opportunity to simply switch on the "I'm not here" signal by staring at their phone, and keep broadcasting that signal as long as needed.
Concerning the human condition--I've always had the intuition of a brick, and first had to read a description in a psychological textbook, or in a realist novel, before realizing that said behavior exists and has this and this function, and has been around me all along. So it gets added to my database and now the perceptive filter recognizes it.
Some of us exist in a pretty strong cocoon that filters the world to this extent, and we have to cerebrally recognize something before the filter starts showing it. So just watching people or myself is not enough in my case. It has to be supplemented with constant relentless reading of anything from Malinowski and Foucault to Raymond Chandler and Len Deighton, for a synthesis to happen and the new knowledge and perception possibilities to be added to my Self's systems.
In short, my advice would always be read more, read more, read more. Read more.
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I think the move away from deep involvement in one's community started even before we had devices and the internet.
When I lived in a small town a few years back, most of the houses on my street were old. They had front porches, but no one sat on them the way they once did. I'm guessing there are two reasons for this: air conditioning, which made it more comfortable inside on those long, summer evenings, and television (which gave them something to do besides sit on the porch, sweating and swatting at bugs while gossiping with the neighbors).
And of course, America has become increasingly urbanized and suburbanized. Communities are increasingly built around the automobile.
Cell phones are just the latest in a long string of inventions that serve to isolate, even as they also pack us in like sardines. Blame cities, the telephone, electricity, radio, air conditioning, television and cars (and communities built and planned around cars) for isolating people. The internet and cell phones are just the latest in the long string of technological changes that make it easier for people to isolate themselves from their neighbors and to be highly selective about whom they interact with.
When I lived in a small town a few years back, most of the houses on my street were old. They had front porches, but no one sat on them the way they once did. I'm guessing there are two reasons for this: air conditioning, which made it more comfortable inside on those long, summer evenings, and television (which gave them something to do besides sit on the porch, sweating and swatting at bugs while gossiping with the neighbors).
And of course, America has become increasingly urbanized and suburbanized. Communities are increasingly built around the automobile.
Cell phones are just the latest in a long string of inventions that serve to isolate, even as they also pack us in like sardines. Blame cities, the telephone, electricity, radio, air conditioning, television and cars (and communities built and planned around cars) for isolating people. The internet and cell phones are just the latest in the long string of technological changes that make it easier for people to isolate themselves from their neighbors and to be highly selective about whom they interact with.
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I've heard part of it is that the parents of millenials decided to revolve their social lives around their children's activities, so once those millenials grow up and either decide to not have kids or to hold off on having kids, there's nothing left for them to do.
A lot of people I know don't seem to do much after work. A lot of people I know seem too exhausted to do much -- but then I think I know a higher than average proportion of people with depression/anxiety disorders/on the autism spectrum.
A lot of people I know don't seem to do much after work. A lot of people I know seem too exhausted to do much -- but then I think I know a higher than average proportion of people with depression/anxiety disorders/on the autism spectrum.
There are also those who savor and protect their privacy who elect not to "connect" (as referenced in this thread). Respect for one another's boundaries and the courtesy of forgoing intrusion or involvement without invitation has always been (IMHO) the hallmark of a polite society.
I think some of the questions asked in Basic Writing Questions are rudimentary at best. At times the questions make me flinch, they seem so basic. It feels like any writer should know the answer just intuitively.
BUT
The internet wasn't around for me to ask these questions. I got here having already learned the answers. Maybe the learning curve has changed...and people are just asking the web hivemind questions that they would have figured out for themselves if they only stopped to think about it. Or through research or reading or trial and error. Maybe I'm wrong...but it seems to me that the more basic questions being asked would have been volleyed around internally in a previous generation. I don't think people aren't connecting or figuring it out. I just think the path of learning is different...and at times I suppose throwing a question onto the interwebz is quicker than thinking about it and coming up with your own answer.
BUT
The internet wasn't around for me to ask these questions. I got here having already learned the answers. Maybe the learning curve has changed...and people are just asking the web hivemind questions that they would have figured out for themselves if they only stopped to think about it. Or through research or reading or trial and error. Maybe I'm wrong...but it seems to me that the more basic questions being asked would have been volleyed around internally in a previous generation. I don't think people aren't connecting or figuring it out. I just think the path of learning is different...and at times I suppose throwing a question onto the interwebz is quicker than thinking about it and coming up with your own answer.
As far as connecting goes, I can't even figure that one out. I feel more connected by devices and I mean emotionally, and in a very real way. I don't think we have to worry about emotional connection dying out with the advent of technology. There is definitely a laziness factor in having everything at your fingertips...but connections are real. I don't believe that in person face to face time will ever go out of style. But I depend on my day to day connection through my smartphone with the ones I love. And the ones I merely tolerate. My kids know the nuances of laughter and tears far beyond the confines of the device-age they live in.
I have too, but fanfic, even if you don't accept things like medieval Arthurian lit as fanfic, or the continuations of Chaucer's tales by other writers, Star Trek fan fic was probably the first widely known and recognized phenomena of fan fic, and it thrived during the late sixties, before the show was cancelled (and it's still thriving!).
There are printed fanzines of Trek and Who and SWars and Darkover and Pern and and that go back decades. And popular books about fanfic and academic studies.
It's not new, and not derived from the 'net; it just thrives there.
In terms of the greater issue of connection—I grew up in very rural N.H., on a dirt road.
The U.S. mail was my primary connection to the outside world; the phone was expensive, outside of the local calling area, I couldn't drive, town was thirty minutes away on a sunny day, so I wrote letters to friends I'd never met.
And I met my partner and some of my dearest friends (going all the way back to 1989) on the 'net.
And there are several couples who met via AW.
Waaaay too many of them choose this crutch to help them NOT be fully present while they're driving a car. Waaaay too many times they succeed, and help other drivers, passengers and pedestrians NOT be fully present ever again.
caw
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Wait. What? So I'm supposed to interact with strangers on the subway? I've seen people urinate, light suitcases on fire, pick their noses, sing a cappella horribly, make and eat a sandwich, change their clothes, etc, etc, etc. These are strangers. These are the best and the worst of society.
My face is in my phone on the subway. Because I'm reading the latest novel. Would you judge anyone less if their face was in an actual paperback novel?
I'm present when I'm reading.
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I doubt there were any fewer "seemingly basic questions" about characterization twenty years ago, there just wasn't the venue for them that there is now, so we never saw them.
I think it's just are perspective of being able to see the things we couldn't see before, now that it's all online, rather than people being different now than back then.
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I don't think it's the presence of the internet making people ask these easily answered by quick research questions. Not all by itself. There's a certain amount of entitlment and laziness that comes from knowing you can just ask someone instead of looking it up yourself.
Me? When I decided to write I just went and looked up theory on viewpoints, novel wordcount, the length of shorts and novellas etc. I didn't want to wait for anyone to tell me what the answers were or link me to them. I wanted to know and wanted to know now.
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Frankly, I don't want to interact with people in public, especially on public transport. Unless it's on my terms, people around me can just piss off.
Would you say this if I were reading a "real" book, one made of paper? Or is this disdain reserved specifically for those of us who are more interested in reading Facebook on our phones, which I do for most of the ride to and from work if I'm not reading my Barnes & Noble nook, which is another piece of electronics which is obviously designed to bring about the full destruction of human interaction as we know it?
The best thing about public transit is everybody can use it. The problem is everybody does.
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Just to note: I wasn't talking about the change over decades - just over the last few years (I might even say over the last couple of years). So, recent phenomena
Just to note: I wasn't talking about the change over decades - just over the last few years (I might even say over the last couple of years). So, recent phenomena
Is it just the last few years since you've been on AW? Because that might be what's changed - that there's a platform where you hear these sorts of questions (which are, I think, often no more than thinking out loud.)
The internet is a big boost to human interaction, if only because of Tinder. 
I've come to realize that nearly everything I've learned about writing from the internet is of questionable value. I guess that has value in itself, though.
I've come to realize that nearly everything I've learned about writing from the internet is of questionable value. I guess that has value in itself, though.
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I think a lot of the basic questions people ask in writing forums, the ones that come up over and over again and run in waves, are intended to be conversation starters. Sometimes people ask them as a way of connecting, because they really want to know what others think, not because they have no idea at all about the best way to write an evil person.
Or maybe they just want approval for asking a "deep" question, or are trying to get their post count up. AW gets these now and again. Starting thread after thread that asked kind of inane questions but not really engaging, and they got called out for trying to race to 50.
I don't think folks who crop up with simplistic or all-or-none world views are all Millennials, though. I've run across plenty of black-and-white world views in folks of my own generation, and in my parents'. Actually, I think that sort of thing was very common back in the old days. Certain things were just wrong or not nice period. If people did certain things, they were bad. And certain things were wrong just because.
I don't know that the number of people who exhibit this kind of thinking has changed with the internet necessarily. But it may be the issues that are widely regarded as signs of a unilaterally bad character have shifted, at least in some circles. It's also possible the internet just means we run into them more, either because it attracts them, or because we encounter and interact with more people each day than we did pre-internet era.
Or maybe they just want approval for asking a "deep" question, or are trying to get their post count up. AW gets these now and again. Starting thread after thread that asked kind of inane questions but not really engaging, and they got called out for trying to race to 50.
I don't think folks who crop up with simplistic or all-or-none world views are all Millennials, though. I've run across plenty of black-and-white world views in folks of my own generation, and in my parents'. Actually, I think that sort of thing was very common back in the old days. Certain things were just wrong or not nice period. If people did certain things, they were bad. And certain things were wrong just because.
I don't know that the number of people who exhibit this kind of thinking has changed with the internet necessarily. But it may be the issues that are widely regarded as signs of a unilaterally bad character have shifted, at least in some circles. It's also possible the internet just means we run into them more, either because it attracts them, or because we encounter and interact with more people each day than we did pre-internet era.
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It's no use speculating on the cause of the problem until it can be determined there is actually a problem.
Personally, I think the combination of faulty human perception and memory is more convincing than a very tempting narrative that hits a lot of the bugbears of "Things are getting worse!", "Technology is changing things for the worse!", "Young people!"
Personally, I think the combination of faulty human perception and memory is more convincing than a very tempting narrative that hits a lot of the bugbears of "Things are getting worse!", "Technology is changing things for the worse!", "Young people!"
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I think you can definitely see a problem. For example, someone asking novel wordcount is actually much more basic than asking if others have used a particular style of writing or not. Or even what they think. One is extremely lazy despite the good intentions of the asker because most people, young and old, have had to google things before and can do a cursory search.
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