The Universal Story/Script Plot Chart/whatever name it goes by vs. Arc Type Stories

I actually like reading self-enclosed plots often found in manga and in Eastern fiction. I guess what I'm talking about is a book that is more TV series rather than a movie type. So it is absolutely possible for the character to go through a variety of standalone plotlines. The closest thing in English fiction that would kind of be like what I'm trying to describe is probably the memoir or maybe David Sedaris' books, in terms of continuity. In other words, separate stories need not be told in the same order and need not build on each other in any way.

I'd love to hear thoughts on specifically on fantasy but also other genres are fine too
1. have you read books of this type
2. are you writing something of this type
3. what are your thoughts on breaking free of the typical plotline that all writing classes and books teach intro -> point of no return -> etc.
4. Do you stick to or reject the universal story method?

cbenoi1 said:

References would be nice. Like web links?

-cb

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As I said, I haven't really found English novels with this sort of structure other than memoirs, so idk. Another person mentioned Detective Conan which is a totally valid example. So the main character stays the same and we all work based off of that universe, but the plots that happen don't really join to form one beginning/call to action/middle/crisis/climax/end.

Samsonet said:

Are you thinking of something like Detective Conan, where there are several arcs with filler episodes in between?

I like the kind of plots manga has, but they can get away with it 'cause they have pictures. I'm not sure whether I'd read them if they were published as novels.

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Yes, Detective Conan is a valid example. I was asking to hear other people's thoughts because I've read quite a bit of Chinese webfiction (basically original giant novels, sagas which is not fanfiction and you need to pay money) and it really seems to work there. I suppose there is a preassumption of having a reader base cares for this kind of thing though. Because apparently fluffy romance is a genre too.

cornflake said:

David Sedaris is an essayist.

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Lol. I know. I've read all his books except one.

TereLiz said:

So, something where the characters don't have as much of an arc? Where the status quo is the same at the end of the story as it was at the beginning? I need more concrete examples to be of more help, I think.

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I just thought of a great example. Winnie the Pooh. Status quo remains the same.

I thought I couldn't think of an example, but The Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, except for a more mature audience. Or the Bailey School Kids even though they are separated into different books. So I wonder where else it's been done. Maybe even though it's a series, continuity isn't really a thing, though I'm looking more for examples of where it hasn't been split up.

Helix said:

Neil Gaiman's The Graveyard Book (inspired by Kipling's The Jungle Book) might be of interest. There's also Ray Bradbury's fix up novel, From the Dust Returned.

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Oooh, I've already read The Graveyard Book and really liked it but I will check out the Bradbury one. Thanks!

Monolith said:

I recently finished reading The Last Wish, which is a collection of separate short stories involving a professional monster hunter. I don't know how if the rest of the Witcher books are structured like that, but it sounds like it fits your criteria.

I thought it was a nice change of pace compared to the kind of structure I'm used to reading. I also liked how each short story was told in between one "main" story, which would make references to the others.

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Will check it out. Exactly to the sort of referencing thing. Thanks!

Curlz said:

The reason it's hard to come up with examples of such books is simply because it's very difficult to pull off something like that successfully. I'm curious, how do you imagine it? A character just walking form place to place and things happening? You could pick up Stephen King's Dark Tower books, they could be read as series of vignettes or unrelated adventures that the characters go through. Danielewski's House of Leaves is a series of unrelated events, if you remove their connection to the House. But those books are memorable because the mini-adventures in them were all very memorable on their own, they each had a huge impact on the reader. If your stories turn out to be just so-so, and the reader reaches a dead end with the last page of the book (what, all this and nothing?), the result won't be pleasing. It's not about arguing what "method" is better, just for theoretical sake. There are a lot of experimental books out there which break the rules. But have you read that book where the writer totally refuses to use the letter "e"? No? Well, not many people actually have.

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Hmm. Well, I won't mention manga/comics because they operate kind of under different rules. This is why I made a forum post because I'm not really familiar with this kind of model really being common in English lit. I can imagine it'd be hard to publish commercially, especially for first time writers.

So I will give an example for Chinese webfiction where it's commercially viable. We don't really have this, or at least, I've only seen one instance, but for webfiction, they have a subscriber model which is basically where an author provides app. 30-70 chapters for free with 1000 words min. but usually 3000-7000w per chapter. and then from there on you must pay to read the rest so you can imagine everyone wants to A. attract readers B. make them stay C. make them like the book enough to pay/support the writer. C. is the most important because I can't recall the word for it, but basically think movies and torrent. Copyright isn't as protected. But as long as C. is valid, they can average a few thousand to a few million paying readers so they're still fine? The books are being written along the way. Basically the novel ends when the paying subscriber count gets too low, so the total chapter count can be in the 400s range, though 150 is usual.

I just thought of another lit. example. Kind of similar to Conan, except this is a novel, Sherlock Holmes. Also, the whole point of the arc type is that if the reader doesn't like this arc, they can just skip it. I have read novels above ^ where I have skipped arcs or just not read the last quarter and that hasn't diminished the arcs I liked. Life, like subscriber counts dropping or the author's inability to write decent endings, happens. This is valid both for where the arcs are really separated as entirely different plotlines, or when they operate with some degree of continuity. I think vignettes are too short to fit the criteria for anything I mentioned. Some writers give out fan-service "vignettes" I guess after the novel concludes to wrap up some side character endings, so yeah...

cbenoi1 said:

I see. One BIG story that spans several books.

Many European comic book series have this quality: Corto Maltese, Largo Winch, Thorgal, XIII, etc.

You will find this model prevalent in the 50s and 60s when magazines (like Tintin and Spirou) had running stories. This is a business model closer to what you are seeing in Japan: subscription-based content, which is difficult to map to a book-based business model we have here.

I'm certain there exists what you are seeking here in some niche markets literary magazines.

-cb

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Yes to the subscription based content. I mentioned in another post about the webfiction model that Chinese fiction has where money is primarily made during its web run and if there's enough interest, it gets printed. Would you happen to know some names? The closest thing I read to a literary magazine is the New Yorker...

There was a parody episode of some anime explaining the wonders of the Jump (a famous manga publication/publishing house? don't quote me on this) in regards to the arc. Basically what I remember is

1. characters can die and undie and die and undie with great frequency
2. nothing is set in stone unless it is a "serious arc"
3. no one ever gets any older, or time doesn't move
but also the character need not ever go through emotional transformation in the grand sense. They can change within the arc, but after that, it's as if the previous arc didn't exist, hence the lack of continuity

Ex. 1. Ash from Pokemon is still 11 years old, over ten years later...

I'm wondering if there are any books that you have read that aren't written very close to the universal story type structure that beginning writing classes and screenwriting classes teach and still worked, even if they aren't the arc type that I've been describing.

Curlz said:

The webfiction you mentioned has a different format than a novel and that's why they do not compare. In that webfiction you get the stories separate, in little chunks. In a novel, you'll get the stories in an already connected block of paper/text. When buying a novel, a reader would go through it all the way. This is a different experience from, say a book of short tales, which the reader would naturally read one by one, or a webcomic where the content is already divided into "editions"/"episodes" etc. You cannot explain to every reader that this is not to be read as a continuous story when you give them a "novel". Although those same readers would be very happy with your work if you present it in another format (not "novel"). You can break the rules of writing but you cannot break the rules of reading.

I am not aware of a Sherlock Holmes novel where all the stories were collected. If they were collected, that would still be a collection of stories and not a novel.

What you are saying about arcs is a different topic entirely. A novel may have a character that does not develop, but that doesn't mean there isn't a string that ties up beginning, middle and end. There is always a reason something starts, then a development, and then a final effect, and those are connected (in a novel). What you are talking about is taking that connective string away, and instead having little chunks of mini-adventures. And that's different from just "not having an arc". "On the Road" is a novel of the type you describe (and a classic, written about 60 years ago), but it was part of a larger cultural movement and a novelty for the time. What you want to do is not new. It just wasn't popular enough to produce a larger following. And you are right that life doesn't write decent endings (that was the reasoning behind that "On the Road" thing ) But not many people are interested to read about life as it happens. Well, up till now at least. There is nothing to say that you would not be able to produce a very successful and interesting product out of your experiment.

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I haven't read any English webfiction, but the Chinese ones I've read have no differences from novels? Because of the general book length, one arc is usually around 40,000+ words (I have read up to 100,000+ per arc) and so are quite developed and in no way mini. I mean, there is the added advantage of if your subscribers are dropping like flies, you ramp up the action or change the plot direction, but a huge number of people also only read them after they're finished. In that respect, other than being not printed (though you can certainly buy a printed version) it's absolutely not different from a novel. I'm referencing the genre of world-hopping mainly which is an established genre there and not here. Also, as you can imagine with this many subscribers in an incredibly populated? medium and with such rampant copyright ignoring (whole books are reposted elsewhere), the people who write well enough to keep 15,000 paying readers min. and especially the breakout stars who have over a million aren't exactly writing fanfiction or for word count when the name of the game is to keep you hooked enough to pay during its web run.

Also, I didn't write, life doesn't write decent endings. I meant life happens, and so I will excuse the writer for dull plot arcs if even one of them was exceptionally good or perhaps an even incredibly bad second half of the book since half is already over the 100,000w count already. Interesting to hear about the cultural movement thing. I haven't heard of this stuff before, so I will check that out. I would hesitate to call this a "novelty" since it's actually an established story format elsewhere. There certainly needs to be a connective string, I agree, but as time goes on, the more I notice the universal story format while I'm reading, the less I like the book. Most recently, I remember reading Graceling one of the more successful YA novels and thought I would have liked this when I was much younger. And while it wasn't bad, I didn't like it because I've gotten a little tired of reading things that almost perfectly align with the universal story plot chart. The intro is here, the refusal of the call is here, the point of no return is here, etc. I prefer reading books where the plot unfolds very organically and not in that watertight emotional point 1, emotional point 2 way.

And I totally get that people like different things. I had to put down a writing help book in rage the other day because the author said that omniscient view was awful and lazy.