If the MC is twelve and all his friends are 18 and the rest of the characters are adults, is it still MG?
age (MG question ported from YA)
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mirandashell
Banned
He is a 12 year old orphan and who interacts mostly with adults. There is a bit of adult situations as some of the adult ladies are 1820's London prostitutes.
Also, he is a very book smart boy who has grown up quickly after the death of his parents.
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Thats how I feel.
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Thats how I feel.
mirandashell
Banned
Well, it's not YA (which is where you are right now; I don't know if the thread started elsewhere, but I'll port you to Writing for Kids in a second). My guess would be that it's not MG either. Your best bet would be to get some MG- and adult-reading betas to give you an idea of how it reads. As with YA, the MC's age doesn't always define the book, even if the MC is the sole POV character and sole character driving the plot. The voice and themes play a part.
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It really depends on tone and how graphic the sex part is. Many MGs only have one child protagonist, mine basically do (in this case I now have 2) because generally what I like to do is reflect the absurdity of the adult world through the eyes of a child. So an MG can absolutely only have one child protagonist. It can even be a child in a gritty time period dealing with tough stuff. The only thing that doesn't make the content MG is sex. There's no sex in MG. There might be a crush, maybe a little kiss between two kids, but that's really it. So if you have sex it's definitely not. That being said if you have implied sex, if you have something happen that only the adult readers would understand but a child reader would not, then you might be able to get away with it too.
More than any of this is how it's written. Subject matter doesn't matter nearly so much as tone, word choice, etc. Is it written in an MG voice? Or is it written in an adult voice?
More than any of this is how it's written. Subject matter doesn't matter nearly so much as tone, word choice, etc. Is it written in an MG voice? Or is it written in an adult voice?
You may want to post in Share Your Work so people can give you feedback regarding voice, etc. Voice is key in MG.
Actually this raises a great question. What ages are considered MG and when does it go to YA? Putting aside content, and just addressing the age of the protagonist, I had one agent tell me that if the MC was 15 or older that no way it would work for a middle grade - she would reject it immediately because she couldn't place it as MG or YA. I am not sure I agree. Since my novel involves an MC that must battle an evil king, I thought putting him at 15 sounded more reasonable since you would expect some physical adeptness in order to participate in a sword fight. I am always told that kids read up so I thought 15 would be okay...the novel is definitely MG rather than YA. Any opinions on this would be appreciated!
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Kids do read up, but they generally don't read that far up (obviously some do, but for the purposes of discussion and general guidelines).
A 15-year-old is in high school (I realize your protag may live in an alternate reality, but in this one...). Middle grade is generally around 8-12/13. A 10-year-old likely won't relate well to the situations a high schooler finds himself in, the language he uses (not profanity, just general discussion), etc. Their concerns are vastly different.
If it's an MG book, yeah, you have to age him down or have specific world-building reasons for why 15-year-olds are somehow equivalent to like 10-year-olds, which would seem to defeat the purpose in keeping him older.
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It's a bit confusing, since different agents seem to have different ideas about the ages kids are in middle school. In our area, they're typically 6th-8th grades, so kids will usually be in the 11-14 range. High schools are 9th through 12th grade, so kids would be 14-18. But midgrade has traditionally been given as the 8 or 9-12 age range, with characters allowed to be a tad older, up to 13 maybe (since kids read up).
From these blog entries, it sounds like agents and publishers are getting away from a rigid focus on character age for defining the MG and YA split. I've even noticed some shelves at B&N that seem to be focused on SF and F for younger teens (shelved next to the YA fantasy), which I assume would be middle-school/junior high age. Really, it's about the plot and themes embraced by the book. But of course, it would be odd to have 14-year-old starring in a story with 7th grade concerns, or a 12-year-old starring in a story with 9th grade concerns.
http://writeforkids.org/2014/01/the-difference-between-middle-grade-young-adult/
http://kidlit.com/2010/11/20/is-it-mg-or-ya/
http://www.upstartcrowliterary.com/middle-grade-teen-unlocking-the-mystery/
Is there a reason why your novel with a 15-year-old protag wouldn't be a YA fantasy?
From these blog entries, it sounds like agents and publishers are getting away from a rigid focus on character age for defining the MG and YA split. I've even noticed some shelves at B&N that seem to be focused on SF and F for younger teens (shelved next to the YA fantasy), which I assume would be middle-school/junior high age. Really, it's about the plot and themes embraced by the book. But of course, it would be odd to have 14-year-old starring in a story with 7th grade concerns, or a 12-year-old starring in a story with 9th grade concerns.
http://writeforkids.org/2014/01/the-difference-between-middle-grade-young-adult/
http://kidlit.com/2010/11/20/is-it-mg-or-ya/
http://www.upstartcrowliterary.com/middle-grade-teen-unlocking-the-mystery/
Is there a reason why your novel with a 15-year-old protag wouldn't be a YA fantasy?
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Even though 12/13 may technically be a MG protagonist age, it's also an age range you might be counseled to avoid by agents/editors. That's the grey area between MG and YA where it could be either, so it's safer to go with 11 or 14/15 and make sure you're clearly in one or the other.
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15 is definitely too old for MG.
And if the only reason the character is that old is the whole swordfighting thing, well it shouldn't be an issue. It depends how realistic your book is (but there are always prodigies don't forget) but since you have an Evil King I assume it's fantasy and if that's the case you have a lot more flexibility to have exceptional heroes. Arya in Game of Throne is a kid when she learns sword fighting. I had a protagonist who was 10 and a half be a competent swordsperson too.
The issue is more voice, what's the voice of your work. If it reads MG then it should be MG. If it sounds more YA then it should be YA.
But to answer your question: absolutely 15 is too old for MG.
And if the only reason the character is that old is the whole swordfighting thing, well it shouldn't be an issue. It depends how realistic your book is (but there are always prodigies don't forget) but since you have an Evil King I assume it's fantasy and if that's the case you have a lot more flexibility to have exceptional heroes. Arya in Game of Throne is a kid when she learns sword fighting. I had a protagonist who was 10 and a half be a competent swordsperson too.
The issue is more voice, what's the voice of your work. If it reads MG then it should be MG. If it sounds more YA then it should be YA.
But to answer your question: absolutely 15 is too old for MG.
A lot of fighting styles don't need brute force, so it's not that unlikely that a child could learn them. But if it's something where they'd need to be a fair size, simply make them bigger. I've known ten-year-olds who are already adult height. An eleven-year-old who gets mistaken for fourteen is not that uncommon. Children vary a lot in how fast they grow.
I think 12 is a pretty standard age for protags in MG. I've always read that kids read up- so if you're aiming a MG book at 8-11 you want a 12 yr old so readers can read about an older character (if only slightly)
Just about all the MG I read stars a 12 yr old. 13 starts to get into "tween" fiction and I've read some of those too- but aren't books with 13-14 yr olds called upper MG now? But I agree that anything over 13-14 is too old for MG. That's a young YA protagonist.
Just about all the MG I read stars a 12 yr old. 13 starts to get into "tween" fiction and I've read some of those too- but aren't books with 13-14 yr olds called upper MG now? But I agree that anything over 13-14 is too old for MG. That's a young YA protagonist.
Thanks, cornflake. You make an important observation in that this is an alternate reality - nothing like high school the way we define it. That is why I thought older (15) would work but I see that's not the case for MG, although the content is MG...Hmmm...thanks for your feedback!
Wow! Thanks for all of the great information Roxxsmom!
And to answer your question - the content (plot, themes) is really directed at MG.
BTW I love your avatar - is that a GSD? I used to have a black GSD named Nikki. I was blessed to have her as part of our family for 14 years. Now I have a loveable goofball black and tan GSD named Luke who is 7 and my writing buddy.
Thanks, Cyia - I appreciate your feedback. It's hard enough to get representation so I sure want to avoid doing anything that will reduce my chances!
Thanks Toothpaste - you are confirming what I am hearing from others and it is not wise for a debut author to attempt to break the rules. It reads MG so it looks like Rugal will be getting younger...
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Thanks for that observation, Polenth - that gives me more confidence in reducing Rugal's age!
Thanks, Che - I am thinking 12 yrs old will work. I think the lines are blurring somewhat as others have mentioned but to be on the safe side Rugal will become younger...
So...come to think of it...do I even need to define Rugal's age? If you don't mind reading a summary here: http://novelwrites.com/sword-of-fate/
The opening of the book starts at one age but quickly jumps to 1 1/2 years later in the second chapter - where it stays for the rest of the book...so he would need to be ten for the opening and then could be 12 for the rest...I would throw the opening up so you could see the voice and why I am calling it MG and see if ten is realistic but I'm not at 50 posts yet...
The opening of the book starts at one age but quickly jumps to 1 1/2 years later in the second chapter - where it stays for the rest of the book...so he would need to be ten for the opening and then could be 12 for the rest...I would throw the opening up so you could see the voice and why I am calling it MG and see if ten is realistic but I'm not at 50 posts yet...
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