Afterwords, the Reading Room
- Thread starter Ari Meermans
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Several of us are reading John Irving's Last Night in Twisted River. [Spoilers for some early matrrial in the first half]
I'm currently about 45% through it. What I think he's doing very well is handling how he's jumping around in time. He'll jump to the college age Danny but immediately goes back and fills in the story. Then he jumps to the successful writer Danny and fills in what's gone on in between. At the micro level, the fill ins don't feel like fill ins and I don't notice that he's jumping around. I've seen the jumping done so poorly in the past it's refreshing to see how it can be done well. I read through the fill ins with enough knowledge of what's going to happen that I'm interested, but not so much knowledge that it I'm simply tolerating the fill ins.
Where I think he struggles, though, is in his transitions. There are small scenes that don't work for me, such as when Danny's mother dies. Rivers don't ice out all at once like that. Had there been a log jam that broke, I would have bought that except that rivermen would have known about the log jam and, drunk or not, would not have out on the ice. It's like Irving needed to kill her somehow to get the story to the next phase, but chose an implausible way out of convenience.
I also get the sense that the fill ins are indeed part of a much larger fill in. I wonder if, when writing, Irving had two related but different stories in mind: the events in Twisted River that start the book off, and whatever will develop into the climax later on. Once Dominic and Danny move to Boston, I thought it started to lose steam and drift. He's handling it very well at the 10-foot level, as I said above, but it feels like backstory for something that he wants to happen later at the 100,000-foot level. I guess all books can be described as backstory to the climax, but this is moreso than that. 20% or more feels like building a later story than the story itself.
I'm currently about 45% through it. What I think he's doing very well is handling how he's jumping around in time. He'll jump to the college age Danny but immediately goes back and fills in the story. Then he jumps to the successful writer Danny and fills in what's gone on in between. At the micro level, the fill ins don't feel like fill ins and I don't notice that he's jumping around. I've seen the jumping done so poorly in the past it's refreshing to see how it can be done well. I read through the fill ins with enough knowledge of what's going to happen that I'm interested, but not so much knowledge that it I'm simply tolerating the fill ins.
Where I think he struggles, though, is in his transitions. There are small scenes that don't work for me, such as when Danny's mother dies. Rivers don't ice out all at once like that. Had there been a log jam that broke, I would have bought that except that rivermen would have known about the log jam and, drunk or not, would not have out on the ice. It's like Irving needed to kill her somehow to get the story to the next phase, but chose an implausible way out of convenience.
I also get the sense that the fill ins are indeed part of a much larger fill in. I wonder if, when writing, Irving had two related but different stories in mind: the events in Twisted River that start the book off, and whatever will develop into the climax later on. Once Dominic and Danny move to Boston, I thought it started to lose steam and drift. He's handling it very well at the 10-foot level, as I said above, but it feels like backstory for something that he wants to happen later at the 100,000-foot level. I guess all books can be described as backstory to the climax, but this is moreso than that. 20% or more feels like building a later story than the story itself.
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^^I'm intrigued, Chris, and will put Last Night in Twisted River on my list. Over the past couple of years I've been trying to read some books that I read and loved when I was much younger, as well as books I missed but always wanted to read.
Right now I'm reading Infinite Jest, by David Foster Wallace. It's a long book, my edition is over 1400 pages. I've never been bothered by that because I'm a fast reader, but. I think is (by far!) the slowest slog I've ever had through a novel. I don't think it's ever taken me more than a couple of weeks to finish a novel before this, and then only because I was rereading and purposely stretching the time. It's been a month, and it may take me another 6 to finish. I expected to love this, I wanted to love it, but I don't. My thoughts on it are disjointed, because that's what the whole reading experience feels like.
Set in the near future, it's an interesting premise that should feel especially relevant now, taking place after an imagined Limbaugh/Kemp presidential administration. Swaths of the US (which is no longer the US) are toxic, and time itself is for sale--ie: Year of the Depend Adult Undergarment. The novel is dark, funny, some of the characters are brilliant, it's literary--all things that are normally right up my alley--but. There are some characters that are definitely main characters, centering around a boarding school tennis academy and the family that founded it, and then a nearby halfway house, and then there are also Quebecer wheelchair bound terrorists thrown in, and a video made by the man who founded the academy that is so riveting those that watch it literally watch themselves to death, unable to move away.
Many addicts (using and recovering), and I feel like reading this is equivalent to crawling inside the head of one particularly character, aptly nicknamed Madame Psychosis.
He goes into such torturous detail for everything that I find myself skimming and then going back to reread because I'm certain I missed something important. So far I don't think I have.
Maybe this is one of those novels I would have loved when I was younger but no longer have the "right" mindset for (yanno, too old). My overriding feeling as I read is that I must not be smart enough to recognize the brilliance.
Right now I'm reading Infinite Jest, by David Foster Wallace. It's a long book, my edition is over 1400 pages. I've never been bothered by that because I'm a fast reader, but. I think is (by far!) the slowest slog I've ever had through a novel. I don't think it's ever taken me more than a couple of weeks to finish a novel before this, and then only because I was rereading and purposely stretching the time. It's been a month, and it may take me another 6 to finish. I expected to love this, I wanted to love it, but I don't. My thoughts on it are disjointed, because that's what the whole reading experience feels like.
Set in the near future, it's an interesting premise that should feel especially relevant now, taking place after an imagined Limbaugh/Kemp presidential administration. Swaths of the US (which is no longer the US) are toxic, and time itself is for sale--ie: Year of the Depend Adult Undergarment. The novel is dark, funny, some of the characters are brilliant, it's literary--all things that are normally right up my alley--but. There are some characters that are definitely main characters, centering around a boarding school tennis academy and the family that founded it, and then a nearby halfway house, and then there are also Quebecer wheelchair bound terrorists thrown in, and a video made by the man who founded the academy that is so riveting those that watch it literally watch themselves to death, unable to move away.
Many addicts (using and recovering), and I feel like reading this is equivalent to crawling inside the head of one particularly character, aptly nicknamed Madame Psychosis.
He goes into such torturous detail for everything that I find myself skimming and then going back to reread because I'm certain I missed something important. So far I don't think I have.
Maybe this is one of those novels I would have loved when I was younger but no longer have the "right" mindset for (yanno, too old). My overriding feeling as I read is that I must not be smart enough to recognize the brilliance.
You made it well farther into Infinite Jest than I did. It started off so well too, but then became a collection of short stories that weren't building toward anything. I'm perfectly happy to be led by an author through separate narrative threads (see City on Fire, for example) as long as I know it's building to something. I didn't see that in Infinite Jest.
As for being too old, I think that what wows me has changed over the years. When younger, I was thrilled to be slammed in the face with something I hadn't seen before. Now that I'm older I look for smaller surprises that tickle my brain but bring authenticity of experience as well. Perhaps things that explain my observations, or validate them. Maybe I've read too many addiction memoirs, but the nitty-gritty of addiction is neither surprising nor does it validate my observations. I read one and say "So? What's new about that?" Perhaps younger readers than us eat it up because it's still new and validating to them. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, but it's realistic that what I look for in "a good story told well" changes with time.
As for being too old, I think that what wows me has changed over the years. When younger, I was thrilled to be slammed in the face with something I hadn't seen before. Now that I'm older I look for smaller surprises that tickle my brain but bring authenticity of experience as well. Perhaps things that explain my observations, or validate them. Maybe I've read too many addiction memoirs, but the nitty-gritty of addiction is neither surprising nor does it validate my observations. I read one and say "So? What's new about that?" Perhaps younger readers than us eat it up because it's still new and validating to them. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, but it's realistic that what I look for in "a good story told well" changes with time.
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Yes! I don't need a huge or even obvious payoff, I definitely don't require a happy ending, but...something.
Just started John Irving's Last Night in Twisted River. In the middle of the second chapter. Took me a few days of reading to get through the first chapter- but I suspect that is more due to what's going on in my life right now and my cloudy mindset, than the book itself.
If I wasn't reading this along with Sloppy Joes' Cafe, I might not continue. I choose what books I'm reading based on my mindset/emotional state/level of stress in my life. My choices are all over the place. I bop from literary, to young adult to thriller to mystery to sci-if to the occasional chick lit to the occasional romance to miscellaneous category to hey, why not?
Right now, my mind could benefit from a more fluffy book, but I'm going to stick with this one for now, but I may be reading at a slower pace than the rest of Sloppy Joe's. Looking forward to hear what others think of the book.
Enjoying the way Irving has set things up so far- logging camp in New Hampshire in the 1950's.
If I wasn't reading this along with Sloppy Joes' Cafe, I might not continue. I choose what books I'm reading based on my mindset/emotional state/level of stress in my life. My choices are all over the place. I bop from literary, to young adult to thriller to mystery to sci-if to the occasional chick lit to the occasional romance to miscellaneous category to hey, why not?
Right now, my mind could benefit from a more fluffy book, but I'm going to stick with this one for now, but I may be reading at a slower pace than the rest of Sloppy Joe's. Looking forward to hear what others think of the book.
Enjoying the way Irving has set things up so far- logging camp in New Hampshire in the 1950's.
Hey, Coffee, I'm about where you are but this is my second time reading it; read it years ago and loved it. I'm probably to blame for starting this whole thing because I bugged Chris to read it! And then decided to give it another read so we could discuss it. 
What I enjoy about it is the setting of the rough North Woods logging scene, and how Irving brings the characters more and more to life. The peculiarities of Dominic the cook delight me. Right now he is bringing Indian Jane onto the scene. She's been mentioned a lot but this is where she first shows up.
What I enjoy about it is the setting of the rough North Woods logging scene, and how Irving brings the characters more and more to life. The peculiarities of Dominic the cook delight me. Right now he is bringing Indian Jane onto the scene. She's been mentioned a lot but this is where she first shows up.
I too enjoy the north woods setting. My family is from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and the charaters remind me a lot of the old timer loggers and miners I remember growing up.
It is a pretty heavy book. Some pretty seriuos stuff happens which I can totally understand would bother someone in need of something more fluffy.
It is a pretty heavy book. Some pretty seriuos stuff happens which I can totally understand would bother someone in need of something more fluffy.
Yeah, it kinda starts off that way. When I was younger I craved that exact kind of fiction, stories that could weave those heavy events right into the daily worlds of more familiar goings on.... I think Irving pulls that off really well and that's a big reason the book struck a nerve with me back then.
I agree he pulls off the characters well. They are consistent in their reactions to the nasty stuff. Some of the scenes themselves, however, I found less convincing.
Okay, this is really bugging me about Twisted River. At irregular intervals, he'll pick a certain, unusual word that he uses several times within a few pages, or he'll pick one particular detail and hammer on it. Ketchum's erection in the toilet scene is one (I took it to be foreshadowing of the coming sexual conflict between Dom and Ketchum, so I can forgive that one) or the minuate of where they lived in Iowa City. Even as a literary cue of something to come, I think he's getting carried away with it.
yes!
Farther along and glad I stuck with it.
the characters are coming to life. I feel like I've been dropped into the logging camp. I love the food and cooking references. Made me hungry- the other night I had to get up and get a snack while reading.
And Dominic's nickname- When they first called him Cookie, I wondered who might have first started calling him that. I did not immediately think Cookie=Cook ( duh).
Oh, and I loved when someone cuts off their finger and Dominic's like, well it's Friday.
I just got to the part of the "accident" with Danny and the 8inch skillet ( the weapon of choice for self defense) and Dominic and Danny are dealing with Jane...
I was skeptical about Danny thinking Jane was a bear. But, I'll just go with it and see where it leads. I'm sad about Jane- both Dominic and Danny loved her. She was the closest thing to a mom he had. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.
Dominic was really taking a chance in being in a relationship with Jane- he strikes me as cautious, devoted to his son, doesn't drink, etc. He was taking a huge risk- making himself and his son vulnerable for some inevitable violence. The Constable is a creepy character. Wonder why Jane would get involved with him.
I'm not that far along, I just read the "Well, it's Friday" scene, preceeded by the glorious one in the kitchen with the fat women helpers, Dot and May, trying to get Dominic to -- what, flirt? LOL! I loved it.
And yes the relationships are odd, but then, logging camp, right?
Chris, I doubt if I will notice the scene you want to know if I find, you said it's about 15% of the way in, and didn't ring true for you. I suspect part of the issue is Irving's voice. I am remembering as I get in to this how distinctive his voice and his style are. The whole thing about repeating a word or phrase a number of times, til it seems almost to be a talisman for that part of the plot or something, I seem to recall he does that in other books too. There's a quality of maybe pacing? that is distinctive also. Still I am caught up in the story now.
Coffee, glad you're enjoying it after all. And by the way, even though you and Chris are both further along than I am, don't worry about spoilers at all. I've read it before so it's already spoilt. hahaha
And yes the relationships are odd, but then, logging camp, right?
Chris, I doubt if I will notice the scene you want to know if I find, you said it's about 15% of the way in, and didn't ring true for you. I suspect part of the issue is Irving's voice. I am remembering as I get in to this how distinctive his voice and his style are. The whole thing about repeating a word or phrase a number of times, til it seems almost to be a talisman for that part of the plot or something, I seem to recall he does that in other books too. There's a quality of maybe pacing? that is distinctive also. Still I am caught up in the story now.
Coffee, glad you're enjoying it after all.
And by the way, even though you and Chris are both further along than I am, don't worry about spoilers at all. I've read it before so it's already spoilt. hahaha
Coffee: I thought the Jane as a Bear scene was unintentionally funny. It felt like it was building up to a farcical climax (har, har) that would have ended with much yelling and flailing arms and embarrassment, so when what happened happened the scene didn't work. A twelve year old of Danny's character, I thought, would have guessed what was actually going on and probably run back to his room and tried to pretend he didn't see what he saw. I also thought Dom's actions immediately after, his logic instead of listening to Ketchum, and the scene the next morning before they leave for Boston weren't how people in those situations would have reacted.
Kyla, I'm trying to remember exactly which scene I was referring to. I know the scene where Danny's mother dies didn't convince me because rivers don't ice out all at once like that. An ice-log jam that breaks I would believe, but even drunk river drivers wouldn't be out on the ice knowing there was a jam upstream. I'll look back through the threads and see if I remember.
ETA: It has to be the one where Danny's mother dies. I read it again and although the writing is a little clearer this time, it doesn't seem factually realistic.
For a genuinely funny scene: The parachutist. I do have trouble thinking a skydiver would attempt to land that close to a house (with power lines, and the house itself) but a great scene. I loved Amy. Irving did a great job making her strong yet vulnerable and flawed at the same time. I wish he had done more with her character.
Kyla, I'm trying to remember exactly which scene I was referring to. I know the scene where Danny's mother dies didn't convince me because rivers don't ice out all at once like that. An ice-log jam that breaks I would believe, but even drunk river drivers wouldn't be out on the ice knowing there was a jam upstream. I'll look back through the threads and see if I remember.
ETA: It has to be the one where Danny's mother dies. I read it again and although the writing is a little clearer this time, it doesn't seem factually realistic.
For a genuinely funny scene: The parachutist. I do have trouble thinking a skydiver would attempt to land that close to a house (with power lines, and the house itself) but a great scene. I loved Amy. Irving did a great job making her strong yet vulnerable and flawed at the same time. I wish he had done more with her character.
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Okay, thanks! Since most of us (me anyway) don't have any knowledge of how fast rivers may ice up, it's possible Irving just figured he could get away with it.
And I haven't gotten to the "bear" scene yet, this time around, but will look for it. I do think that tragedy has a comic side to it rather often, though whether Irving meant to convey that or succeeded in doing so convincingly is up for grabs.
And I haven't gotten to the "bear" scene yet, this time around, but will look for it. I do think that tragedy has a comic side to it rather often, though whether Irving meant to convey that or succeeded in doing so convincingly is up for grabs.
How would you guys describe Twisted River's POV? It's 3rd, of course, and some description of omni. Are there degrees of omni? We only get glimpses into the heads of a couple characters in each scene, and only rarely deeply into the thoughts of any one. The interior environment is more often explained through passages of back story. Then of course there are the "spoiler sentences" that only an omni narrator could deliver.
I'm mentally comparing how else Irving could have done it. Getting equally deep into each character's thoughts would be unreadable, and I think removing the spoilers sentences would have taken away some of the wonderfully dark tone. To have everything be a surprise wouldn't have worked for this book, IMO. A 1st-person account from either Dom or Danny's POV would have worked, but the reader would have lost knowledge of all the other stuff going on (and there is a lot of it). I felt there was too much "explaining through passages of back story" but I don't know how else he could have jumped around in the timeline otherwise. Incidentally, I don't usually like the jumping around, but it was very well done here.
I'm mentally comparing how else Irving could have done it. Getting equally deep into each character's thoughts would be unreadable, and I think removing the spoilers sentences would have taken away some of the wonderfully dark tone. To have everything be a surprise wouldn't have worked for this book, IMO. A 1st-person account from either Dom or Danny's POV would have worked, but the reader would have lost knowledge of all the other stuff going on (and there is a lot of it). I felt there was too much "explaining through passages of back story" but I don't know how else he could have jumped around in the timeline otherwise. Incidentally, I don't usually like the jumping around, but it was very well done here.
Right now I'm at the part where Dominic is 59 years old and Dot and May have just come to his restaurant in Vermont.
I really enjoyed the beginning chapters at the logging camp, but feel that the plot of the cook and his son on the run lost tension ( so far it's been 29 years, who knows how much longer before any kind of confrontation).
I feel like the middle parts are just a throwing in of semi-autobiographical life events of Irving's and don't feel true to the characters.
I think first person from Danny's perspective would be an extremely powerful book. But, I also think because of all of the painful semi-autobiographical elements ( sexually abused as a child, etc.) that it was too close to home for Irving to do a first person account. Right now, I'm not sure I really like Danny and Dominic Becasue I feel that I don't really know them. The logging camp chapters were more show- since then I'ts 100+ pages of tell.
I'm really curious to see where Irving goes from here. Sometimes an author has a way of wrapping things up that makes me forgive and forget any other faults in the book.
I really enjoyed the beginning chapters at the logging camp, but feel that the plot of the cook and his son on the run lost tension ( so far it's been 29 years, who knows how much longer before any kind of confrontation).
I feel like the middle parts are just a throwing in of semi-autobiographical life events of Irving's and don't feel true to the characters.
I think first person from Danny's perspective would be an extremely powerful book. But, I also think because of all of the painful semi-autobiographical elements ( sexually abused as a child, etc.) that it was too close to home for Irving to do a first person account. Right now, I'm not sure I really like Danny and Dominic Becasue I feel that I don't really know them. The logging camp chapters were more show- since then I'ts 100+ pages of tell.
I'm really curious to see where Irving goes from here. Sometimes an author has a way of wrapping things up that makes me forgive and forget any other faults in the book.
Dot and May at the restaurant was a highlight of the middle of the book. And wow, did he ever make them hateful, toady characters! Much more so than they were earlier in the book.
I agree, it lost momentum once they went to Boston. I felt like Irving was making a transition to a bigger scene to come later. Almost like he had two very different but related stories and he needed to link them. The older Danny didn't seem to connect very well to the pre-teen, but Dominic stays the same, and the adult Danny stays the consisten. And Ketchum never changes, which is delightful.
I'm in what feels like the come down from "the famous final scene," but I'm only at the 78% mark. I'm curious where he goes with the final 20% since the main conflict is now, irreparably, resolved.
I agree, it lost momentum once they went to Boston. I felt like Irving was making a transition to a bigger scene to come later. Almost like he had two very different but related stories and he needed to link them. The older Danny didn't seem to connect very well to the pre-teen, but Dominic stays the same, and the adult Danny stays the consisten. And Ketchum never changes, which is delightful.
I'm in what feels like the come down from "the famous final scene," but I'm only at the 78% mark. I'm curious where he goes with the final 20% since the main conflict is now, irreparably, resolved.
Nice to have these hand drawn maps to where I'll soon go.
I just finished the scene where the fellas escape after accidentally killing Jane. So I'm lagging far behind but hope to catch up in the next couple days.
Or not -- I'm enjoying the sharing in any case.
I just finished the scene where the fellas escape after accidentally killing Jane. So I'm lagging far behind but hope to catch up in the next couple days.
Or not -- I'm enjoying the sharing in any case.
This really may be a book that's better the second time through. I just finished reading the scene where they discover Angel's body (oh, right, *that's* why they go to Boston!) and this sentence really stood out to me: "Nothing struck the cook as too coincidental to be believed...." which reminded me of one reason this story delighted me so much in the first place. Irving uses these bald coincidental occurences with no hesitation, and it works, and so far is a pleasure to read.
I imagine it would be much better the second time through. Perhaps all these scenes that I think are dragging work better when I know what's going to happen. I wonder if Irving thought so too, and hence the spoiler sentences.
I still have 20% of the book left, but with the main conflict resolved I'm really curious about where it's going to go for the remaining pages.
I still have 20% of the book left, but with the main conflict resolved I'm really curious about where it's going to go for the remaining pages.
Almanac. oral poem - no idea if it's good
b'day of Machiavelli whose ideas seem to inform much of current politics...
Frantically editing a little sag in the middle of the novel before I send it off. I'll be back, but probably not today. So much interesting convo here, and I'm out of it...dang dang
b'day of Machiavelli whose ideas seem to inform much of current politics...
Frantically editing a little sag in the middle of the novel before I send it off. I'll be back, but probably not today. So much interesting convo here, and I'm out of it...dang dang
LOL Swanny you posted this in the Reading Room instead of Sloppy Joe's -- guess you are focused on that editing all right.
I'm -- dang -- not even halfway through Twisted River and I can see how it might lose appeal once the scene moves to Boston but I am still stuck into the story enough I forgive Irving all his excessive italics and seemingly excessive explanations (there always seems to come a reason for the explanations pretty soon after they happen.) (See what I did there?
) Some of the business about the Irish and Italians in Boston might be a bit much but I like that too, having lived in Baltimore where the communities of European immigrants and their descendants had (or have? It's been decades) great similarities which I enjoyed being reminded of.Having Daniel be a good writer right from the get-go does strike me as something out of a fairytale, given what we all know about writing, but then, I suppose it does happen. Is Irving tooting his own horn there, I wonder? I don't know enough about his own early writing to have an opinion on that, but it does seem to be there by implication.
Even this is not detracting from the story for me however, though I am sure a slow reader these days. Heh. Me and Ketchum, LOL!