Are all books with teen MCs YA? Requesting examples of adult books (split from Appeal thread)

Psychorase said:

On one level, YA's popularity is artificial.

Any book written from the perspective of a teenager -- a current teenager, that is, not an older adult's retrospect -- is YA under the current definitions. If Stephen King were breaking through today, he'd be labelled a YA author due to Carrie.

If every book written from an adult perspective was labelled as a single 'genre', it would be a juggernaut just as YA is. (This is also why I hate YA being called a genre.) Adult perspectives are seen as the norm, however, and works are only labelled if they lack one. On one level I actively avoid the term YA because it diminishes adult interest outside of the specific adults-who-read-YA demographic (which I am not trying to target on any level), but on another...I'm writing about teenagers. What else could that be?

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That's not the sole determinant of YA, nor is someone a "YA author" because he or she writes a YA book.

On one level, YA's popularity is artificial.

Any book written from the perspective of a teenager -- a current teenager, that is, not an older adult's retrospect -- is YA under the current definitions. If Stephen King were breaking through today, he'd be labelled a YA author due to Carrie.

If every book written from an adult perspective was labelled as a single 'genre', it would be a juggernaut just as YA is. (This is also why I hate YA being called a genre.) Adult perspectives are seen as the norm, however, and works are only labelled if they lack one. On one level I actively avoid the term YA because it diminishes adult interest outside of the specific adults-who-read-YA demographic (which I am not trying to target on any level), but on another...I'm writing about teenagers. What else could that be?

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This is not an accurate description of YA or its context. It's important to remember that YA is a marketing category, more specifically an age category, that's comparable to middle grade or adult fiction as mentioned above. It's not to be compared to chick lit, or literary, or horror. It's true that some people have an inflated idea of YAs popularity, but that is based on its mainstream acceptance and prestige compared to the past, not compared to other age categories. Further, it's enjoying a surge of popularity in terms of being licensed for screen adaptions.

Nor is any book involving a teenager YA under the current definition. Further you could make an argument that if Carrie was written now, it might be considered YA. But it wasn't. So it's not.

It is true that some folks won't read a book labelled YA. Their loss. Hasn't stopped YA titles from selling bucket-loads and having huge crossover audiences, beyond just teens and non-teens-who-read-YA.

Psychorase said:

On one level, YA's popularity is artificial.

Any book written from the perspective of a teenager -- a current teenager, that is, not an older adult's retrospect -- is YA under the current definitions. If Stephen King were breaking through today, he'd be labelled a YA author due to Carrie.

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Not even close, though I agree that Carrie IS a YA novel.

POV is part of the determination, but not all of it by any means. The Song of Ice and Fire novels are written from teen POV's for at least 90% of the time, and there's nothing YA about them. It's a different approach, and it depends heavily on the voice, tone, and whether or not the characters are adults in their world, despite their age. A 16 year old contemporary American taking care of three younger siblings, while trying to finish school, get into college, hold down a job and navigate life as the eldest child of a drunk and a drug addict is potentially YA. A 16 year old in a historical novel, in a culture where she's already a wife and mother, living as an adult in her society, with an adult's responsibilities, likely isn't.

KTC said:

It appeals to me because I guess my own teen years were so utterly traumatic. I love YA to read because it's usually the book that would have saved me back then had it been there for me to read...if that makes any sense. AND...I write it to put the book that would have saved me into the hands of a younger version of me who needs saving. It's very personal for me.

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This is a very common sentiment among YA authors. We write what wasn't there when we needed to read it.

YA is a category, not a genre. Look at my sigline. 2 Post-apocalyptic/sci-fi, 2 SF/F, 1 contemporary, ALL YA. The genre divisions in YA are less rigid, allowing for some of the most innovative writing out there. A sci-fi western set in feudal Japan? Much more possible in YA than adult. YA is also more likely to embrace new or "uncomfortable" ideas without those ideas taking the spotlight away from the story. The focus is different. YA is also a sort of golden-period age-wise. It's the twilight moment between child and adult, where the characters are still young enough to believe in things, still young enough to get away with things, still young enough to be overlooked as children, but also old enough to have some natural freedom and accomplish things on their own.

Psychorase said:

I still can't tell what's so horrible about my post. Nor has anyone at any point on any writing-related forum offered an example of a non-YA book about teenagers that a) was published after YA became popular and b) is not from the perspective of an adult looking back on adolescence.

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I gave you one that rose to popularity concurrently with YA, if you use Harry Potter as the MG/YA starting point. (That's where I'd start, as it was literally the series that broke the NYT best-seller list. The first Game of Thrones Novel came out the same year as Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

Many novels are "crossover," not technically YA or adult -- John Green's books often fall into this category. I would add The Book Thief and maybe Unwind to this category.

If you want to go back a little farther, then Flowers in the Attic - a huge series, featuring teens that isn't meant for a teen audience. Let the Right One In, also with a young protagonist, but not a child's book by any means.

Go back farther than that, and you've got Little House on the Prairie and Go Ask Alice. Sabriel. Lord of the Rings. Alice in Wonderland. Pretty much any European "boys own adventure" story.

Last fiction book I read was Rainey Royal (2014). Told in 3rd person present tense from the POV of a 14-year-old girl. It's a coming-of-age novel-in-short-stories marketed as adult literary fiction.

One of my favorite Haruki Murakami novels, Kafka on the Shore, is told primarily from the POV of a 15-year-old boy, also in present tense.

While probably more famous for the YA novel The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, Sherman Alexie's other book narrated in present tense by a teen boy, Flight, is adult slipstream.

Psychorase said:

Though 'looking back on past' isn't necessarily present tense -- it's things that aren't, say, Life of Pi or To Kill A Mockingbird. The narrator is a teenager, not an ex-teenager reflecting on those years.

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I specifically pointed out that they're in present tense because it rules out the possibility of "looking back on the past."

If it's present tense, there's no question the narration is from the POV of the POV character's current age in the narrative.

Edit: Also because some people seem to think present tense is a YA-exclusive trend when it's not.

HP 1-3 are MG, 4-7 are YA, all are cross-over, and that is exactly the moment that set the "MG/YA" craze on fire. And where in the world are you shopping that Flowers in the Attic is shelved as YA? They're Gothic horror novels written for adults, like Carrie.

Even Twilight was *written for* adults.

(YA actually is a sub-division of children's lit as far as NYT, etc. are concerned.)

Psychorase said:

The minds of every woman of my mother's generation who's mentioned that book, of course.

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Fair enough, even though I'm not Cyia. But Let The Right One in is deffinitely not YA and it's not reasons of subject matter or age like you're thinking.

Red Rising and Golden Son by Pierce Brown are novels about a teenager but marketed as adult. In the last couple of years.

Ghost Bride by Yangsze Choo has a teenage protagonist but is marketed as adult. In the last couple of years.

On the other hand, The Strange and Beautiful Sorrows of Ava Lavendar by Leslye Walton features several MC's, only one of which is a teenager. :Last year.

While most YA's are about a teen from a teen perspective, it is not an exclusive concept.

And I recall JKR saying when she originally wrote HP, she didn't know what it would be (MG, YA, Adult.) She just wrote the story she wanted to tell.

My biggest issue with this thread right now are those who are disparaging against YA in calling it "simple" or having "bad writing." I've seen plenty of horribly written adult books. Okay, I could say more but I need to go pick up the kiddos. I'll be back!

Psychorase said:

The minds of every woman of my mother's generation who's mentioned that book, of course.

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Kids read 'adult' fiction all the time. It doesn't change the novels themselves, or their category or genre.

I live so much in YA friendly waters that I forget this misconception still exists. Thanks for the reminder

Room is a book from a very young kid's perspective and it is most certainly adult. And, as a reading "omnivore" the writing in YA is often complex, compelling, and absolutely beautiful. (For example: Far From You, The Bone Dragon, Perks... To name but a few). To pigeonhole any category outright is just crazy. It's far too vast and varied, just like the MG or Adult category.

What separates YA novels from novels with underage characters, IMO (since that's what it seems this thread has evolved into, rather than the appeal of YA), is a combination of voice and immediacy.

Voice seems easy enough: the characters must speak like teens, not adults looking back at the world as it was when they were teens. But if we're focusing on contemporary (sure, why not, kids in fantasy/dystopian novels or historical fiction hardly have a chance to talk like or be like real kids what with all the death and disease they've grown desensitized to, which has surely stripped them of their similarities to contemporary US youths), voice is HARD. How do you strike a balance between nailing the time period verses dating the novel in a few short years? Adults might not care when they're reading, but the target audience will. If it's not set in the US or a 1st world country (more of these, plz), the voice must be immersive, and more importantly, not patronizing. YA doesn't talk down or preach, but it can teach if the reader doesn't think they're being taught.

Immediacy: This applies more to style. There's no wallowing in prose; the plot must go on (and if your contemp YA mss is over 90K, you're in trouble) There's no "little did I know", or "since then, I've learned". No matter what the tense, present or not, stuff happens. The characters don't spend whole chapters navel gazing or wondering where they went wrong in life. When a YA novel is over, it's not really over. Not like an adult novel with young adult characters—it's implied that novel is over because it's BEEN WRITTEN. Scout, Kathy Dollanganger (sp?), Laura Ingles-Wilder, Dina from the Red Tent, they're all writing as adults telling you about being a kid. In third person adult novels, it's even more like someone is telling you a story that's already over and done even before you reach THE END.

When the YA novel is over, things should be wrapped up, but there should also be a feeling that more is to come. Not for the sake of selling a coveted trilogy or anything, but what I've heard called "Happy for Now". As opposed to Happily Ever After, or the more adult Conflicted and Constipated Over the Mistakes of my Wasted Youth.

To answer the original question: For me, YA's appeal is that it helps young people (less than the adults who read these books) to become not only more literate, but more empathetic to the plight of their fellow humans on this planet. Contemporary YA deals with a lot of issues. Death. Sex. Racism. War. Friendship. Family. Rape. Same things adult books deal with, but more accessible thanks to the more streamlined writing and plotting. Maybe that's not why other people read it, but that's why they should.

Daniel Woodrell, WINTERS BONE.
Bonnie Jo Campell, ONCE UPON A RIVER
Louise Erdrich, THE ROUND HOUSE

*DROPS MIC*

eta: THE ROUND HOUSE occasionally uses the 3rd POV to "look back" from an adult perspective, but the overwhelming majority of the text is immediate 3rd POV from a 13yo boy.

Are all books with teen MCs YA?

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No, but I think they get boxed in much the same way that people will put litfic with a female protag in Women's Fiction and books written by POC into ethnic fiction. That doesn't mean that's where they're supposed to go, but I don't know if or what one should do about it.

You just gotta hope that the person organizing the books cares enough (and has the time/ability) to consider where the books fit best.

I've seen that definition of YA as "any book with a teen protag" and it's... annoying, to me, but I never know what to say about it. I wish the popular definition was the more specific one. That would clear up a lot of arguments.

Sage said:

Night Circus is one that mostly focuses on the teen characters and their dilemma as well. Many people wrongly call it YA. In fact, you'll find that a lot with books with teen protagonists, so don't be confused by that. Just because someone somewhere thinks it's YA and labels it as such, doesn't mean that it is marketed as or written as YA.

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Yes, and there's some gray area there as well. A book like UPROOTED, for example, isn't specifically published as YA (and it's in the adult section of my library), but it got attention from YA book bloggers and blurbs from YA authors (as well as adult). I imagine it was deliberately positioned to cross over. Maybe that's becoming more common as publishers take advantage of the established adult audience for YA books.

The Flavia De Luce mysteries focus on an 11-year-old character, but are written for adult readers.

The Silver Star by Jeannette Walls was shelved in the "adult" section of my bookstore (versus the YA or children's sections), but it's written from the POV of its twelve year old protagonist (it's a terrific book, btw).

There are so many stories with young narrators that are not YA. The one that comes most quickly to my mind is THE BODY by Stephen King. Now the classic mindblowing STAND BY ME movie. Kids/Teens. Adult theme...adult story.

Two of my own published novels feature child/teen narrators but are definitely NOT YA novels. Someone who didn't understand the YA market and knew I wrote YA sort of lambasted Sebastian's Poet for not being age appropriate for YA. It was NEVER marketed as YA and it is NOT YA. But people ALWAYS ALWAYS misunderstand the YA market. Some even STILL misunderstand that YA is not a genre.

Of mine, both Sebastian's Poet and The Reasons are adult themed stories with young characters.

THE CURIOUS INCIDENT OF THE DOG IN THE NIGHT-TIME is an adult novel with a 15-year-old narrator.

I honestly had no idea NIGHT CIRCUS wasn't YA. It's been on display in my library's teen section for ages. They lie, they lie!

Any book that has any teenage characters in it gets shelved "young adult" by Goodreads users. The book I'm reading now has characters who are teenagers for like the first two pages, and then they're grown up for the remaining 600 pages, and bafflingly some people have shelved it YA.