Is it a big market for sweet romances?

I'm the weirdo who doesn't need a "clean" romance (not a fan of that term; too vague/open to interpretation as others have noted) but I tend to like more closed door sex scenes. I read romance that isn't, but what I'll go back to are authors like Molly Okeefe where the intimacy is very thoroughly tied into the character conflicts and moves the story forward. I know supposedly all intimate scenes within romance are supposed to move the story forward, but some writers handle that better.

I've never seen a romance publisher use "clean" sweet is very well understood amongst those publishing romance to mean it's a romance without the sex scenes or swearing.

Sweet for secular, inspiration for religious.

That works just as well for me as any other terminology. And we're not talking here about what we're writing, and where it might land on the spicy/sweet continuum. We're talking reader expectation. It may not be our favored terminology or we may never buy into it, but for the romance reader/customer those terms mean very specific things. We violate those expectations at our peril.

Are consumers using that term? If so perhaps more on the religious side?

OP was asking about secular sweet. There is certainly a market for that. Even in sub-markets (e.g. M/M) many authors do well with sex-free stories (either not happening or BCD). In that context the discourse I commonly see is sweet versus spicy rather than clean versus dirty. Like many readers I read both sweet and spicy but see them as somewhat distinct with different authors being my favorites for each. I like sweet stories with angst and doubt where characters overcome obstacles to get together, and as they are not together for most of the book--obvious not much bonking.

I've never heard a reader/customer use clean/dirty. Sweet/spicy, yes, and I've also had customers who refer to a relative heat level. Their terms, not necessarily mine.

I don't personally care for clean/dirty. I think Astraea's being a little precious using Clean Reads, but YMMV.

bunny-gypsy said:

I've heard reviewers say this is part of it. (When there is a swear, like Cathy said, it's a very "light" swear.)

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In my own lifetime I remember this much: when I was a teenager (in the early 60's, no less) women did not use strong words -- at all. I remember my friends and I one day deciding to say "fuck" -- among ourselves, just for the shock effect. We giggled, and that was it. We did not go public with it. Men did not swear in the company of women. Sounds shocking, I know! So, anything before the early 60's -- be careful!

c.m.n. said:

So no characters can curse in a sweet romance, either?

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Hell, no!

Would Sarah Addison Allen's romances be considered sweet? There's like one sex scene in each that's rather short, and mostly described metaphorically. I'm just trying to understand since I had previously considered writing a romance but just couldn't do much of the sexytimes.

I am editing a WIP that I have trouble classifying. I have called it "clean" or "sweet" and gone back and forth. I wrote it with the plan to use a different pen name than the erotic romances. It is a story I really want to tell with some autobiographical aspects but I also want to write it to have something to point to when work related people want to see something I've written. Currently, there is chemistry and kissing/hugging in the story. No cussing. They obviously had sex after they married because the epilogue has her pregnant. They discuss waiting until they are married, but it is not an Inspirational book either.

My own personal rule about what I'd write was no sex, no foreplay. Kissing, hugs only and no cussing. People would cuss in some of the situations I believe but my draft so far has avoided more than a couple made up "cuss" words or maybe a "Darn".

I figured I'd figure out "clean" or "sweet" with the help of a publisher, assuming I can find one. I'd like to polish it and try it in a few competitions first and see if that didn't lead to a publisher being interested. Maybe Beta readers will shed light on this too.

aruna said:

In my own lifetime I remember this much: when I was a teenager (in the early 60's, no less) women did not use strong words -- at all. I remember my friends and I one day deciding to say "fuck" -- among ourselves, just for the shock effect. We giggled, and that was it. We did not go public with it. Men did not swear in the company of women. Sounds shocking, I know! So, anything before the early 60's -- be careful!

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I think that depends. My mom says that her dad occasionally let loose with some pretty blue language, though it was reserved for "special" occasions and her mother never approved. They were respectable, middle-class people, but not religious. That might make a difference too.

I am curious about where this idea originated: that men can swear among men but women of good family will wilt if someone uses strong language in their presence. The Victorian era, or does it go further back? Is it peculiar to western cultures, or is it more widespread? I was a child in the 70s, and the notion that women/girls can't swear was pretty much out the window by then, though sometimes an adult would still tell us it didn't sound "nice" for girls to talk like that.

My mother (born in 1915) used to say that she was glad to be over 60 because she'd been told that once they'd attained that age, women could say "bullshit." I retorted, "Then you've been over 60 for several decades."

She was Not Amused.

As a reader, I'm excited that more authors are starting to write sweet novellas and novels. I like to read them when I need a break from the hot stuff. (I prefer shorter works myself because that way I can read more books!) I've also started seeing the word Wholesome used now. This is mainly from indie authors.

I think any term where the opposite of it is unpleasant or a tad judgemental (unwholesome?) is used in communities that have the corresponding belief.

veinglory said:

I think any term where the opposite of it is unpleasant or a tad judgemental (unwholesome?) is used in communities that have the corresponding belief.

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I agree, though, the opposite term for the word "spicy romance" would actually be "bland romance," not "sweet romance." Definitely not how people who are fans of that demographic see things. I'll admit to much preferring genre romances like Courtney Milan's that are on the more explicit side, where sex happens and is shown "on screen," but I think it's cool that there are sub-genres (or whatever they're called) of romance that encompass a range of tastes and interests.

I can't think of anything correspondingly similar in SF and F. They have hard and soft (for SF, anyway), and urban and secondary world and high fantasy, but no one can exactly agree what those terms even mean (and as far as I know, none of the SFF imprints have "hard and soft" lines they bring out, or even urban versus secondary world for fantasy). And while some SFF readers also have preferences re the presence of sex scenes and swearing, there's no easy way to tell whether a novel will include them or not.

Though I don't really know when I go to buy a historical romance novel on Amazon (aside from its being recommended for people who also like an author I know tends towards the "spicy" end of things) whether or not it will have sex in it, unless it's one of those with (shudder) a naked male torso or ripped bodice on the cover or something. I'm not enough of a romance insider (since I only read it sometimes and haven't attempted to write or sell it) to know all the "lines" the different publishers bring out.

Romance does seem to be better organized (or more compartmentalized) in some ways than other genres I read.

I have read through this thread and I'm not sure who mentioned it but someone pointed out that many romance publishers are opening new imprints to publish sweet books. I know that my friends who write sweet romance haven't gotten many sales at the publishers I'm with. The publishers even tell their authors to write hot because that sells. Now they are switching gears. I wonder if that's because their sales have dropped off? Or maybe they are realizing that they have a better chance of reaching fans of sweet romance if those titles are not buried with a bunch of hot books.

Ten West Publishing (Liquid Silver Books) now has Blue Swan Publishing for sweet/inspirational/YA romances and cozy mysteries/thrillers etc. I was surprised they even opened it up to non-romance works. http://blueswanpublishing.com/submissions/
Out of curiosity what are some of the other publishers who are branching out?

Sweet/hot is another one of those things that swing back and forth. For many years we were told the same thing about historical/contemporary. It varies across the years. Trouble is, pendulums tend to swing, and writers who try to follow the swings based on some agent's or editor's perception, are likely to miss the trend altogether.

This is why if you like to write sweet, write sweet. If historical, write historical. Chances are the pendulum will swing over to what you like to do, because swinging is in their nature.

A lot of publishers have gone bankrupt lately. The closing of ARe blindsided me. I keep writing what I want to write (even though some of friends have asked me to change) but will there be any publishers left or will everyone have to go indie? I have some self-published books but I prefer to be a hybrid author. I'm hoping the pendulum in 2017 will swing toward more sales no matter your genre.

You might want to scope out Desert Breeze (caveat: my publisher). They will not take erotica but their books range all over the sweet/spicy continuum. And I'm pleased and proud to repeat their recent news that they're paying all of us, in full, on any monies owed us by ARe. A class act, IMO.

Roxxsmom said:

I am curious about where this idea originated: that men can swear among men but women of good family will wilt if someone uses strong language in their presence. The Victorian era, or does it go further back? Is it peculiar to western cultures, or is it more widespread? I was a child in the 70s, and the notion that women/girls can't swear was pretty much out the window by then, though sometimes an adult would still tell us it didn't sound "nice" for girls to talk like that.

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I don't think it's a question of women "wilting". Not swearing in their company was a matter of respect; women were supposed to be the arbiters of good taste and beauty, so men wanted to uphold that.

For that matter, I never swear myself and it's not because think I would wilt. I certainly don't wilt at all the f words thrown around these days. I just don't like using coarse words. That's all there is to it.

It's simply a preference.

HaleeW said:

A lot of publishers have gone bankrupt lately. The closing of ARe blindsided me. I keep writing what I want to write (even though some of friends have asked me to change) but will there be any publishers left or will everyone have to go indie? I have some self-published books but I prefer to be a hybrid author. I'm hoping the pendulum in 2017 will swing toward more sales no matter your genre.

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My publisher, Bookouture, is the opposite: they are absolutely soaring, and romance is one of their big sellers. It all depends on who is in charge of the marketing. A publisher with good marketing and sales strategy can certainly make it. And even though I'm "only" writing historical fiction, and not romance, sweet or otherwise, I'm still getting a good four-figure income every quarter. And I'm one of their not-so-good sellers.

Many of my fellow authors there have given up their day jobs to write full time.