'Transparent' Discussion

KTC · Jan 18, 2016

I hope it's okay to start a thread here regarding the television show Transparent. I really need to discuss this...but not as it pertains to being simply a TV show.

My trans friends and family do NOT like this show. They say it does not accurately depict it...and they're up in arms about it being a cis male (Jeffrey Tambor) in the lead role.

The thing is, for me, it's just so frigging accurate. Is it because I'm still 'privilege' set for not having yet made any kind of transition? For not even committing to even doing so anytime in the near future? I don't understand the uproar against having a cis person play a trans person...as I have always believed that acting and roles, etc, should be entirely at the discretion of the person taking the roles. Is it not why they take difficult roles? To challenge themselves? I'm not even comfortable admitting to my trans friends that I like the show, because I've seen them shaming others for admitting to it. The thing is, it so totally fucking speaks to me. I see what Moira goes through (AND ADMITTEDLY I'M EARLY IN MY VIEWING...NOT QUITE HALFWAY THROUGH FIRST SEASON) and I feel it's mirroring parts of my own life. And I wonder, if I was on the side of transitioning, would I think this show inauthentic? But you can't have insight without experience, can you...you can predict or assume...but unless I was sitting here on the other side of transition, I can't accurately predict what I would think of the show. And I can't tell my trans friends and family members that it is helping me and reaching me, etc, etc...if it's something that they see as deplorable.

I'm going to my city's queer community centre soon to search out a kind of trans group meeting that might be right for someone like me...someone who just doesn't know. I went to the centre and found their Coming Out Being Out group two and a half years ago...and it was absolutely helpful to my journey. I'm hoping they have something for me now.

I just feel like there is a lot of hostility towards this show that is giving me so much comfort. If I think it's accurate, what does that mean? I wish I could talk to my cousin about these things, but she's pretty closed off to this show...but this show is opening a dialogue for me that cannot be quenched.

Is it because of the age of the trans people I know? Because I'm close to ages with Jeffrey Tambor...and like the Moira character I have grown children and I grew up in a time where it was more unacceptable and more of a secret to keep.

Could it really be a grossly inaccurate telling made worse by the cis male lead? Or are backs up BECAUSE of the casting?

Anyway...I'm rambling.

Maryn · Jan 18, 2016

No spoilers, for those who have not yet seen the show. It's safe to read this.

I'm finding the show... okay. (We're partway through the second season.) I don't find Maura's journey mimics the ones of the few trans people I know, but I presume it's unique for everyone, like all of life's journeys. In the second season, it's less about Maura and more about her screw-up family anyway. It feels like the writers know what to do with those stories but not with Maura's.

I am frustrated by the utterly dysfunctional family which shows so little concern and support for the hard time their parents are going through, both Maura and wife Shelly. I'm frustrated by the parents' lack of concern for the foibles of their adult "kids" because they've got their own problems, Maura especially. I'm frustrated by Maura's obsession with her appearance, while making all kinds of horrendous mistakes with how she dresses and grooms. I'm frustrated with her trans friends' remarks about all trans women losing their families despite vows of support. I'm frustrated with Maura's inability to see it's not all about her too much of the time, although she has her moments of great empathy. I'm frustrated with Maura's inconsistent behavior regarding Shelly's support.

If the show were about a man who'd left his family for another reason--say he no longer loved his wife in a romantic way--I doubt I'd be watching it. Instead, I keep hoping for further insight into how a trans woman experiences the world, and how her transition affects others. Mostly, I've not gotten much of that.

I'm fine with a man playing Maura. I'm fine with him not being a man who pulls off a feminine appearance well. While I'd like to see trans actors get more work, this part seems to demand an actor who is not yet feeling she's a woman at long last. Tambor's fumbling attempts to feel and think like a woman make some of the best moments.

Maryn, who'll keep watching but isn't terribly hopeful

KTC · Jan 18, 2016

Yes, Maryn...I did notice the 'all your family will leave you' thing. Actually came up in the second episode, when Maura went to a fellow trans woman's place after telling the group about telling her first daughter. I thought it strange...but then saw the atmosphere of the place the woman came from and wondered if there was more to it. The community--which is where Maura also moves to--has the potential to be cut off from the cis heteronormative world. In much the same way as Toronto's Gay Village has. At first I thought wouldn't it be a lovely place to live...but I think, in retrospect, that it would be fishbowl living. I love spending time in the village, but if I was there all the time, I could see myself making it my world. I might never venture outside of it...thus closing myself off from the rest of my world...not having the rest of my world close itself off from me. I just wonder if what is happening there is more about the alternative lifestyle than about being trans. If that makes any sense whatsoever. I would always be family first, no matter who I decide to be...I did, for a bit, slip into the queer alternative lifestyle...but just to get my bearings, really. I'm now back to being just plain old me, only queer. I'm probably not making any sense.

Maryn · Jan 18, 2016

I hadn't thought of that aspect, but yeah. I hadn't considered where and by whom that line was said. It's like me living in a retirement community. I don't want to see nothing but people just like me, around my age and income. I want to live my life among people of every kind.

I just found it chilling, that it was presented as the norm. I would certainly hope most people who transition have families and friends who will continue to love them for being who they already are, always have been, and will continue to be. Our trans daughter may not present the same, but she's still the same person, with the same strengths and weaknesses.

It's heartbreaking to know so many trans people don't have supportive families. Man, people suck!

Maryn, who tries real hard not to

kuwisdelu · Jan 18, 2016

I'm enjoying it, and I liked season 2 better than season 1.

Of course, I'm pre-everything. From what I've read of other reactions on the internet (mostly trans subreddits) there are a lot of mixed reactions. Some love it and some hate it.

Because of the lack of representation in media, I think there is a lot of pressure for any TV show or movie about a trans person to be everything to everyone, and represent all of us, and of course that is impossible. So I think a lot of where the show may fall short aren't really the fault of the story it tells, but the stories it doesn't tell. And that goes back to the lack of representation.

I think a lot of post-transition people are probably tired of every story about trans people being a transition story. Because while being trans isn't a phase, transition is, and they're past that phase. The vast majority of stories are about that tiny slice of trans people's lives, and I'm sure they're hungry for representation of the rest of it.

I also get the thing about casting. I don't think it would be a problem if there were plenty of trans roles going to trans actors in diverse storylines, but we're not there yet. Likewise, I don't think it's inherently problematic for a white person to play a Native American character, but in a world where it's still hard for Natives to get roles in Hollywood, and where Hollywood still gets Native characters so terribly, terribly wrong, I think it becomes problematic until things change.

Of course, in the case of transition stories, there's the additional problems that a trans actor would have difficulty playing a pre-transition role without very heavy makeup, so at that point it becomes easier and more practical to have a cis actor. However, this leads into another problem I think some people have: they're worried that these cis actors playing trans women will contribute to the public perception of trans women as "men in dresses". When most people think of trans people, they're not imagining Maura's beautiful yoga instructor; they're imagining Maura. This sucks twofold. The first way being that it probably does promote an incorrect perception that trans women never end up looking like their target sex, and always resemble "men in dresses," which sucks. The second way being that it seems like there's a lot of pressure both in the trans and cis communities to "pass" before you dare step outside as your target gender, which also sucks. IMO, both of these are unhealthy and unfortunate. But these aren't problems with the show. They're problems with the world and the lack of diverse representation of trans people in the media.

If there were more representations of what is the "norm", there wouldn't be so much pressure and assumptions about the universality of one character in one show.

kuwisdelu · Jan 18, 2016

I've noticed that I often misgender trans characters played by cis actors. It really frustrates me. (Because, obviously, I don't like misgendering people, including characters). But I've never done it with trans characters played by trans actors. Just a thought. (I still like the show.)

KTC · Jan 19, 2016

I think it just may be serving to heighten this depression I feel myself slipping into. I think I need a break from it...

Maryn · Jan 19, 2016

In that case, tell us what kinds of shows you like and we'll recommend favorites. Life's too short to waste on shows that bring us down, right?

Best western series ever: Deadwood. Runner-up: Hell on Wheels.
Best show about politics: House of Cards
Best cop show: The Killing. Or Bosch. Or The Wire.
Best show with music: Treme.
Best show about music: Mozart in the Jungle.
Best show about clones: Orphan Black.

I'd be happy to go on. I don't believe it bumming yourself out if it's avoidable.

maxmordon · Jan 19, 2016

Kev, watch Sense8. That's personally the best Queer show at the moment and full of warm, fuzzy feelings, also bonus points for having a trans character played by a trans actor and not doing a transition story.

KTC · Jan 20, 2016

Thank you, Max. I will check it out...for sure.

KTC · Jan 20, 2016

Maryn said:
In that case, tell us what kinds of shows you like and we'll recommend favorites. Life's too short to waste on shows that bring us down, right?

Best western series ever: Deadwood
Best show about politics: House of Cards
Best cop show: The Killing. Or Bosch. Or The Wire.
Best cop show with music: Treme.
Best show about music: Mozart in the Jungle.
Best show about clones: Orphan Black.

I'd be happy to go on. I don't believe it bumming yourself out if it's avoidable.

Thank you, Maryn. That was thoughtful!

I know this will not come as a surprise to anyone here, but I tend to process things either after I speak OR while I'm speaking. I never dissect a thing ahead of time. I'm the original impetuous person. I always knew this about myself...but recently it's been accentuated by the fact that I am in a relationship with the most straight-laced feet firmly on the ground planners I've ever met. Nothing comes out of Michael's mouth that wasn't deeply considered and rewritten several times for accuracy. It's one of the things that I love about him. When you have lived your entire life with your head in the clouds, never knowing up from down and sideways, you truly come alive when you have an anchor to support your flightiness.

I said that because last night I went back to watching Transparent...because it's something I need to process no matter how it makes me feel. I need to process the part of me that is in flux...and a stupid TV show is helping me to do that. What got me the other day was the talent show that Maura participated in...and how her children reacted and how she felt in the end. AND the sleepaway camp for crossdressers. The whole thing was just so powerful. This coming from someone who could slip beneath the waves after reading a stanza from a poem that sliced his heart to smithereens....or a line, for that matter. YES...it's making me sad (sadder)....but it's also creeping into my skin and lighting it on fire. Michael and I have not spent very much time together the past three days. His mother is dying...and I'm trying to give him a bit of space through the week...because, you know, we still do the utterly mundane things when someone we love is dying...like GO TO WORK. So, in order to ensure he spends all his time with her, I have stepped back a bit and told him I could be there in moments if he needs me. So...just minimal time the past few days. Last Tuesday...after a day of having seizures...his bulldog that he had for 12 years...well, we had to take her to the vet and have her put down. It was cancer. It's been a hard January so far...and it's only going to get worse.

So, I choose now to binge watch a show I've been simultaneously dreading to see and dying to see. But it's something I need to do. Because it's something I can't really talk about with anyone...and I feel I'm getting my fix...like I'm talking it through.

I have a friend who is transitioning at the moment. FTM...and I have avoided talking with them on the subject. Well, last night our group planned our next get together takeover of a local restaurant. The evenings are fun and crazy and the restaurant kind of ties everything down before we come...and we have singalongs and write-ins and it's particularly crazy. We end up having wait staff flocking to and staying in our little private room. It's generally a great time every time...8ish writers and their mates when possible. Well...I made a point in our planning to tell this transitioning person that I am sitting beside them...that we NEED to talk. Of course, they know why...I always catch them looking at me sideways...they know what my heart is telling them and my mouth is too afraid to say. We'll see how that goes. Should be interesting...Michael has been telling me to talk to them forever.

Oh...but I drone on and on. Sorry. See...I'm processing as I type. What I should do is just hit the back button and scurry off into the morning. But, fuck it...

Maryn · Jan 20, 2016

You know, Kevin, because of posts like this, we feel like we know you. I like that.

Maryn, more closed

Cyia · Jan 20, 2016

KTC said:
I said that because last night I went back to watching Transparent...because it's something I need to process no matter how it makes me feel. I need to process the part of me that is in flux...and a stupid TV show is helping me to do that.

If it helps you, then that's all that matters. Even if it's problematic, you're getting value out of it. If it at some point in your viewing the show ceases to have meaning or act as catharsis, or whatever else you find that it helps with, then you can judge that part of the show as you need to and keep the pieces that hold value to you.

(I hope that doesn't come off as flip. I'm a problem-solver type of person, and sometimes too blunt without meaning to be.)

kuwisdelu · Jan 21, 2016

KTC said:
I have a friend who is transitioning at the moment. FTM...

Speaking of which, lest trans men again get lost in a discussion of trans womanhood, here's a trans man's perspective on Transparent which I just came across.

Again, I feel like it isn't really anything that Transparent gets wrong, so much as how we're all waiting for some perfect representation that encompasses all of our experiences and breaks down all of the stereotypes, when of course, that's utterly impossible until there is far more diversity in the media than exists now, because it's not a single story.

We want a kind of representation that can never be delivered in a single work, because our experiences are all different, and because often there is still truth in the things we're tired of watching and reading. We just want more than those truths, because there are so many truths, and unfortunately, the world and any single work of fiction can only handle so many truths at once. But we're getting there, and the world is changing little by little.

It's not a single story we want. It's all of them.

KTC · Jan 22, 2016

Yes. I guess I'm just relating SO much to THIS particular story. It's truly gutting me at places. I think the whole family thing, maybe.

It's funny, because Maura and I...not the same sexuality at all. She's a lesbian transwoman. But the story really isn't about that side of things so much. But the kids?! Jesus...they're so sexualized.

GENDER IS UP HERE

NOT DOWN THERE

kuwisdelu · Jan 22, 2016

KTC said:
Yes. I guess I'm just relating SO much to THIS particular story. It's truly gutting me at places. I think the whole family thing, maybe.

Oh yeah. I get that. Me too. It's weird how I'll see some posts from trans people simultaneously complaining about how they're so tired of certain kinds of scenes, while also lamenting how true it is and how it gave them so many feels. (Yet I get that, too.)

It's funny, because Maura and I...not the same sexuality at all. She's a lesbian transwoman. But the story really isn't about that side of things so much. But the kids?! Jesus...they're so sexualized.

GENDER IS UP HERE

NOT DOWN THERE

Well kind of. Sexuality can be important to gender though. A huge part of coming to terms with everything, for me, was finding trans-positive feminist queer porn, and realizing my sexuality could be legitimate and not a fetish. (In-and-of-itself. I still love kink.)

KTC · Jan 22, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
Oh yeah. I get that. Me too. It's weird how I'll see some posts from trans people simultaneously complaining about how they're so tired of certain kinds of scenes, while also lamenting how true it is and how it gave them so many feels. (Yet I get that, too.)

Well kind of. Sexuality can be important to gender though. A huge part of coming to terms with everything, for me, was finding trans-positive feminist queer porn, and realizing my sexuality could be legitimate and not a fetish. (In-and-of-itself. I still love kink.)

For me, I don't do porn. I'm the biggest prude in Prudeville. That stems, I believe, from my PTSD.

kuwisdelu · Jan 22, 2016

KTC said:
For me, I don't do porn. I'm the biggest prude in Prudeville. That stems, I believe, from my PTSD.

Just another way we all experience these things differently.

maxmordon · Jan 22, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
We want a kind of representation that can never be delivered in a single work, because our experiences are all different, and because often there is still truth in the things we're tired of watching and reading. We just want more than those truths, because there are so many truths, and unfortunately, the world and any single work of fiction can only handle so many truths at once. But we're getting there, and the world is changing little by little.

It's not a single story we want. It's all of them.

I actually was talking about this with a friend on Twitter last night. She's trans and feels deeply identified with Kylo Ren from the new Star Wars movie, especially how she was behavior-wise before transition and her relationship with her father and her own journey. And she's getting lots of flak on Twitter because she relates her experience to a male character and one that could be arguably understood as a queer-coded villian yet, she's displeased with current trans representation because she finds most of them hard to relate to her personal journey.

I can relate to that. As an overweight bookish Latino virgin nerd raised by a single mom there has only been one piece of media where I have pointed out and said "Oh my God, that's totally me!".

kuwisdelu · Jan 22, 2016

maxmordon said:
I actually was talking about this with a friend on Twitter last night. She's trans and feels deeply identified with Kylo Ren from the new Star Wars movie, especially how she was behavior-wise before transition and her relationship with her father and her own journey. And she's getting lots of flak on Twitter because she relates her experience to a male character and one that could be arguably understood as a queer-coded villian yet, she's displeased with current trans representation because she finds most of them hard to relate to her personal journey.

OMG, over on the lesbian subreddits, everyone is lusting after Rey and hoping she's gay and looking for someone to ship her with.

Someone suggested Kylo Ren could come out as a trans woman for some ReyxKylo, and I was like YESSSSSSSS.

KTC · Jan 22, 2016

Just adding a smile here.

maxmordon · Jan 22, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
OMG, over on the lesbian subreddits, everyone is lusting after Rey and hoping she's gay and looking for someone to ship her with.

Someone suggested Kylo Ren could come out as a trans woman for some ReyxKylo, and I was like YESSSSSSSS.

I like the idea.

And yes, Rey is ridicously attractive. Though that plays up for my thing for dominant women who are warriors or are in position of authority.

Which is part of my disappointment for how little Gwendolyn Christie was involved.

Maryn · Jan 22, 2016

Again without spoilers--we just finished the second season and I find I enjoy the flashbacks set a generation earlier more than the present-day part about Maura and her family. It reminded me of Middlesex, in that the early parts which explain something about how the main character came to be were, for me, more interesting than the main character's own story. Still a good book, and a good show, but when we've all caught up, I'd love to discuss.

Cyia · Jan 22, 2016

kuwisdelu said:
OMG, over on the lesbian subreddits, everyone is lusting after Rey and hoping she's gay and looking for someone to ship her with.

Proof positive that there are not enough women in the Star Wars universe.

kuwisdelu · Jan 22, 2016

Maryn said:
It reminded me of Middlesex, in that the early parts which explain something about how the main character came to be were, for me, more interesting than the main character's own story.

Eep. I've heard troubling things about that book. The author actually prided himself on doing absolutely zero research and not talking to any intersex people.

Cyia said:
Proof positive that there are not enough women in the Star Wars universe.

...yeah.

'Transparent' Discussion

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Baaa!

Stand in the Place Where You Live

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Revolutionize the World

Revolutionize the World

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Baaa!

Penúltimo

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Baaa!

Rewriting My Destiny

Revolutionize the World

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Revolutionize the World

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Revolutionize the World

Penúltimo

Revolutionize the World

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Penúltimo

Baaa!

Rewriting My Destiny

Revolutionize the World