YA Word Count(?)

Is it sci-fi or fantasy? Those genres tend to have higher wordcount limits.

145k words (wordcounts are usually rounded to the nearest thousand) is definitely possible! Though I think it would probably give you better chances if you made the wordcount lower -- split it into two or more books, cut scenes or subplots, trim down some overly wordy parts, etc.

The YA wordcount range I see most often is 60k-90k in general, with contemporary YA going lower and SFF going higher. 55k-70k is rather narrow. Kinda surprised me.

ChelsCoakley said:

I know there have been other threads on this, but I wanted a more up-to-date one.

I wrote a YA novel, which I hope will become a series, that has 145,067 words.
Is that too long for a YA or is it passable?

I've read people say YA novels should be between 55,000-69,999 words. But I just wanted to be absolutely sure.
I sent the manuscript to a couple agents recently and now I'm embarrassed that I sent them one with too many words.

Click to expand...

That is crazy too long. Adult fantasy tends to top out at 120,000. That's not to say that longer works haven't been published, obviously, but it's a harder sell. For YA that goes at least double.

Also, not for nothing, but you said you sent manuscripts to agents. Did they ask for those, or do you mean queries, or are you just sending agents your entire manuscript, unrequested? That'd be a bad choice, to say the least, but I'm not sure that's what you meant.

I've heard that YA fantasy novels can be as long as 120k words, but for a first-time writer, it would probably be better to have something shorter. Longer novels take more money to edit, publish and distribute, and most first-time novels aren't going to be top sellers. So publishers are often more concerned about costs and profit margins with unknown authors than they are for more established ones.

Have you had beta readers look at it. Sometimes they can help you trim fat by identifying excessive or repetitive description, wordiness, superfluous scenes, subplots or characters etc. Though as per a discussion in another thread, sometimes betas who are used to reading 200k "doorstop" epic fantasies will suggest we put more backstory and information in. So be sure you ask your betas you're looking for advice on how to trim some length, not add to it.

If you can't trim it to a more marketable size, you have to work with what you've got and hope for the best. There are some wildly successful debuts published in recent years in both adult and YA fantasy that exceed normal length requirements. Some of this is because big 5 fantasy imprints like Tor and Orbit have longer word limits for fantasy than smaller presses do (and their debut writers are more likely to become bestsellers because they get exposure). I also don't know if this is due to selection bias because agents and editors aren't likely to pick up a long debut unless they think it has potential bestseller written all over it.

Still, all else being equal, shorter is almost certainly better, to a point (there is a point where fantasy novels can be deemed too short too).

And as CF said, there's a process for querying. It entails writing an approximately 150-200 or so word "hook" for your novel that introduces who your main protagonist is and what his or her desire, main obstacle, and the story's stakes are. You only send the portion of your manuscript that the particular agent wants (as per their submission guidelines) with the initial query, which can range from nothing (just a query letter) to the first 50 pages or so for some US agents (I think British agents usually want the first 50 pages and have slightly different query letter norms). Many want the first 5-10 pages, or maybe the first chapter pasted into the body of the e-mail.

Research query writing if you haven't done so already (Query Letter Hell is a good place to start the process here on AW), and web sites like Janet Reid's Query Shark.

It seems like you could quite easily split 145k into two 70-80k books for the series? Is there any way to rewrite so that the narrative can read as a complete, but with series potential book at the 70-80k mark?

...ouch. That's either two shortish books or one rambling tome of horrors. Assuming speculative fiction. If you're writing anything else, you've created a monster.

I've heard lower limits down to 40k and upper limits up to 90k for YA. My own writing at the moment is on the lower end of that.

ChelsCoakley said:

I'm not sure how that would be two shortish books. :/

Haha, well I'm actually quite impressed that I could write so many words. I think of it as having a big, fantastic story to tell, hehe.

Click to expand...

Generally, if you've written a book that goes far beyond the word count recommendations of the genre, you've accidentally written a series and can split it up into two books.

It's awesome that you have these stories to tell, but is there a spot to tell them as two stories and get a higher chance of the world reading them?

If you find the right place to publish it, I think it would be fine. City of Bones is about 138,000, Demon King is 137,000, Beautiful Creatures is 151,000, and Inkheart is 147,000 words. So it's definitely possible, especially for fantasy.

I'm 16, and I'm more likely to pick up a longer book than a short one. I find that when a book is too short (or even average length), I automatically assume I won't like it.

So maybe try to shorten it a bit, but you definitely don't have to be within that range in order to be successful (I actually think that if you manage to get published, you have more potential of being popular than a shorter novel).

I'd like to ask a question on this topic as well. For those like me who have their desired word count displayed in the signature, how did you decide that ahead of time? And why?

laurakatelin said:

If you find the right place to publish it, I think it would be fine. City of Bones is about 138,000, Demon King is 137,000, Beautiful Creatures is 151,000, and Inkheart is 147,000 words. So it's definitely possible, especially for fantasy.

I'm 16, and I'm more likely to pick up a longer book than a short one. I find that when a book is too short (or even average length), I automatically assume I won't like it.

So maybe try to shorten it a bit, but you definitely don't have to be within that range in order to be successful (I actually think that if you manage to get published, you have more potential of being popular than a shorter novel).

Click to expand...

The issue is getting published by a trade publisher - and first getting picked up by an agent - with an outsized wc. It's not impossible, but it is hard, and most of the time, the ms could and should be cut.

Justin K said:

I'd like to ask a question on this topic as well. For those like me who have their desired word count displayed in the signature, how did you decide that ahead of time? And why?

Click to expand...

Synaesthesia-ish associations with numbers. I like 55k.

I diffidently share your problem with long word count with MS's. My first draft of my first book was around 150K. 12 years, and 9 rewrites later, I could only get that number to around 110K. Which as everyone has described above still above standards for YA. I personally still cant understand how people can write a book at like 60K. Half the time I'll randomly look down at my word count and go, "damn this is going to be 100 some K. book again." because I'm not even half way though at 30K.

I've not been published so take my advice with a grain of salt. If you've sent it to beta's already give their comments another run through, if not, sent it out to some betas to get there opinion. One of my beta's suggested I delete what I though was a pivotal scene, but later realized could be replaced with something shorter and more to the point, and that alone got rid of 3K. Another realized I used a lot of descriptions over and over again when my MC was panicking, deleting all the extras took another 1K. Little things like that can go a LONG way.

Currently right now I'm editing another book of mine. The first draft WC totals at around 135K. This second time around I'm reading over each chapter then shorting it as clean it all up in the second draft. So far its helped me drop a few thousand.

Anyway, I wish you good luck on your journey weather you chose to keep it as is, or edit it to be shorter.

Justin K said:

I'd like to ask a question on this topic as well. For those like me who have their desired word count displayed in the signature, how did you decide that ahead of time? And why?

Click to expand...

Hmmm, good question. For me, a couple of factors:
- I'm a planner. Because my structure and pacing is generally awful, I have to have quite a strong idea of story beat(s) before I start. I think having some idea of what sort of length you want it to be (though I once had a book I was certain would be around 63,000-64,000 for no real reason, and it went up to 80,000 on the first draft and 74,000 after cuts. I still have this sense that about 62,000-64,000 was around the right length for it, though.)
- Also, it helps it feel like a Real Book before it is a real book. Gives me a little bit of a boost.
- Having read a lot of YA, I flatter myself to think that I have a decent-ish idea of how long my own books "should" be. Obviously there's a fuckton of wiggle room and it doesn't feel restrictive or exaggerated to me: with the idea I have, how many words should I tell it in? How long could I tolerate this book if I was reading it myself? There's nothing scientific about these ratings, it's sort of based on what I'd call it within its own genre. Because I have a tendency to be slightly (stupidly) allergic to very simple/straightforward plots, having an idea of the WC stops me from going off on tangents, but also to sense when the book "needs" another subplot or avenue to give it more weight or meat.
- Gives me confidence. Because, again, pantsing makes me really anxious. I know my own tendency for going off on one, or getting wrapped up in one plot point, and occasionally writing repetitively. So approaching writing with the attitude of "65,000 words. Get in, get out, get it done," helps me to approach my work as a complete whole, not as a series of obstacles.

Most of my books are NaNo books, or start out that way, so typically I aim for 50k and then wherever it ends after that is just a bonus. Or I use NaNo as a way to add 50k to whatever I'm starting with, so the goal becomes 70k or 80k or whatever. It's based on... nothing, really. I just guesstimate.

Funny, I have the opposite problem (and do not understand how people can write 100k+ books! Lol) my current wip is going to be less than 60k and that has me nervous.

When I write, I edit so heavily as I go -- restructuring the sentence multiple times, changing words, changing the paragraph, I know I'm not going to cut anything later simply because it was redundant, it never is. And so I only leave room to add more, which combined with having no subplots, and four characters- one being a cat, it makes me think 50-55k is about the most my story will end up at. I've been reading much about how YA contemporary can go that low, so I feel somewhat comfortable. But at the same time, I'd really like to fit the mold and not be slushed out.

A quick google search shows that everyone's favourite book Twilight was 118,000 words, and my beloved Watership Down is a whopping 156,000 words. The first Harry Potter book is 76k words and I consider that a short book. People say you should keep it between 60-90k but... clearly it doesn't matter THAT much so long as it's not a million word behemoth.

And good. That really matters too.

CheesecakeMe said:

A quick google search shows that everyone's favourite book Twilight was 118,000 words, and my beloved Watership Down is a whopping 156,000 words. The first Harry Potter book is 76k words and I consider that a short book. People say you should keep it between 60-90k but... clearly it doesn't matter THAT much so long as it's not a million word behemoth.

And good. That really matters too.

Click to expand...

I disagree. It matters a lot. Twilight and HP are exceptional books and it's pointless to compare one's own book to them. Watership Down is a classic, and its wordcount isn't relevant to today's market.

Yes, we can always come up with examples of books that fall outside the recommended wordcount ranges. They are relatively rare. Also, it's quite possible in many cases that the books were within the recommended wordcount range when they were pitched, but edits made them longer. I think I recall hearing this was the case for Divergent.

I dunno, I'm jaded from too many times of thinking I'm "good enough" to be the exception to something, and turns out I'm actually not. There's no harm in trying, of course. You won't know unless you do. But it's worth doing everything you can to increase your chances, ain't it?

Just to add my 2 cents: Yes, length matters. Of course there will always be exceptions, but chances are any agent/publisher is going to look at a WC of 145K and think "no freaking way", even if it is fantasy (and this is YA fantasy which is generally shorter than adult fantasy).

I'll bet good money (well, my 2 cents, anyway) that there is a lot of excess there that could be trimmed if you:

1) Take out all the filter words (to touch, to wonder, to see, to know etc)
2) Change passive voice to active
3) Take out all redundancies
4) Take out all the weasel words (could, just, really, that etc)
5) Take out crutch words (um, ah, er etc)
6) Look at every sentence and every paragraph (seriously, all of them) and ask yourself "Is this the best version of this sentence?"
7) Go through the entire MS and be brutal - for every sentence, every paragraph, every scene, every chapter, ask yourself if anything would be lost if it wasn't there (your readers will only know what is on the page, not what used to be there)

Do that, and your word count should (hopefully) plummet, and your book will be a more absorbing read.

I'm currently working through this myself, and yes, it's a slog (I'm averaging 1-2 pages a day ... less when I'm distracting myself on AW), but I have managed to cut 4,000 words in only 50 pages.

CheesecakeMe said:

A quick google search shows that everyone's favourite book Twilight was 118,000 words, and my beloved Watership Down is a whopping 156,000 words. The first Harry Potter book is 76k words and I consider that a short book. People say you should keep it between 60-90k but... clearly it doesn't matter THAT much so long as it's not a million word behemoth.

And good. That really matters too.

Click to expand...

Citing very famous and successful books that happen to break the mold doesn't mean the mold isn't important. The Stand was published too, but if you're not Stephen King, your chances of getting a 400,000 or so word behemoth published is very, very slim. Like the same as the odds of the Nigerian Prince really wanting to send you millions.

Exceptions happen, but banking on your work being an exception or figuring that exceptions mean the rules are irrelevant isn't productive.

laurakatelin said:

If you find the right place to publish it, I think it would be fine. City of Bones is about 138,000, Demon King is 137,000, Beautiful Creatures is 151,000, and Inkheart is 147,000 words. So it's definitely possible, especially for fantasy.

I'm 16, and I'm more likely to pick up a longer book than a short one. I find that when a book is too short (or even average length), I automatically assume I won't like it.

So maybe try to shorten it a bit, but you definitely don't have to be within that range in order to be successful (I actually think that if you manage to get published, you have more potential of being popular than a shorter novel).

Click to expand...

Ah, youthful surity. I wouldn't say that just because you like and seek longer works that something being signifigantly longer is acceptable. That runs the danger of assuming quantity and quality are equivalent when it comes to length. My favorite YA novels are Holly Black's "Valient" and "Light of The Oracle" by Victorian Hanley. Neither break 70K and they're both extremely rich worlds, Urban Fantasy and secondary World Fantasy respectively. Depth doesn't come from length, it comes from the author choosing the right elements during writing and revision to make the world feel expansive.

Personally, I never sought longer YA. I like a very specific feel to the world being presented, and it doesn't matter whether it is a speculative, historical, or contemporary story. That something tends not to be found in longer YA, imo.