Another shoot-up at a health centre in San Bernadino, California

This article suggests five steps Obama could take right away, requiring nothing from Congress, which would effectively reduce gun violence: http://www.dailydot.com/politics/obama-gun-control-executive-branch/

According to a report released earlier this year by the pro-gun-control group Everytown For Gun Safety, there are a litany of actions on guns the president could take that circumvent Congress entirely. Entitled Beyond Gridlock, the report lays out five steps the executive branch could take right now that, the authors argue, will make Americans safer.

The group, which was co-founded by billionaire former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, offers suggestions that are largely in the realm of how regulatory agencies interpret already existing law. These aren't broad executive actions, like the one Obama issued on immigration. Instead, they're narrowly focused regulatory changes. “These are all things that can be done through regulation or otherwise don't require any statutory action,” Jonas Oransky, Everytown's legal counsel, told the Daily Dot. “It's pretty clear to us which things need Congress to act and which things don't. We don't have trouble making that distinction.”

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From the Daily News:

Interview with Farook's father:

Farook’s father was shocked to learn of his son’s possible involvement in the attack.

“I haven’t heard anything,” the elder Syed Farook told the Daily News. “He was very religious. He would go to work, come back, go to pray, come back. He’s Muslim.”

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And from a neighbor :

Longtime neighbors in Riverside were shocked to hear Farook could be involved with such a brutal attack.

“He was quiet but always polite,” Maria Gutierrez told The News. “Maybe two years ago he became more religious. He grew a beard and started to wear religious clothing. The long shirt that’s like a dress and the cap on his head.”

“I know he was very smart. He went to college early. He and his brother were always working in the garage on cars. Until like 11 p.m. at night. I think his mom was a nurse and his older brother was in the military.”

“If it’s him, I’m very surprised. Can you imagine? They were my neighbors for so many years. I never would guess.”

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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-calif-massacre-identified-article-1.2453471

Kylabelle said:

Which is an argument supporting those doctors who petitioned Congress to lift the ban on research into gun violence. Data gathering scares people who are attached to their preconceived theories or who have agendas to promote.

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Let's not forget that the NRA managed to convince Congress to not allow the CDC to gather information on gun violence as a health issue.

I bet gunpowder taggants will help find these guys.

Oh, wait.

Just for clarification: Are shooting really as epidemic in America as they seem, or are they just getting more media attention than before?

efreysson said:

Just for clarification: Are shooting really as epidemic in America as they seem, or are they just getting more media attention than before?

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This sort of shootings? Well, I would have to say they're an epidemic. Recent years has shown a sharp spike in the occurances of them. Other forms of shootings, however, do not seem to have risen at the same rate. In fact, they have to my knowledge stayed fairly constant.

Here are some data on shootings. This is an FBI crime report that showed an increase in active shooter incidents from 2000-2013.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...r-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013

Another study, done by researchers at Harvard's school of public health, showed that while shootings of multiple victims in private homes have not been increasing (nor has the overall murder rate), mass public shootings tripled in frequency between 2011-2014.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mass-shootings-becoming-more-frequent/

http://www.latimes.com/science/scie...otings-more-frequent-data-20150618-story.html

The fact that the background murder rate has not increased, but these type of public shootings have, suggests that these aren't just correlated with a general increase in violence of all kinds.

The question is why? Most Americans seem to think it's because of mental illness, but while most of the shooters have conditions such as depression, substance abuse, or antisocial tendencies, few are afflicted with psychotic illnesses. And the majority of people with depression, substance abuse and antisocial tendencies still don't go on to become mass shooters. Is there a reason to believe that mental illness and personal issues of the kind associated with mass killing have become more common? If so, why?

But even if this is a factor, rounding up everyone with these conditions and forcing mental health care on individuals who checked certain boxes would be prohibitively costly, even if there were a way to predict who is statistically more likely to snap. There would be a ton of false positives.

I think there's an elephant in the room with regards to a way we differ from countries that have very low levels of these shootings compared to the US, but people clamp their hands over their ears and go, "Lalalala," if anyone even tries to talk about the ease of obtaining and stockpiling weapons that make it easy to kill large numbers of people at once.

c.e.lawson said:

Interview with Farook's father:

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So, not a Christian extremist then.

Let's wait for all the facts before we make any snap judgments, Rufus.

efreysson said:

Just for clarification: Are shooting really as epidemic in America as they seem, or are they just getting more media attention than before?

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That seems to be a debatable question. My guess is both are true and one feeds into the other.

Sheryl Nantus said:

Welcome to America.

Where at any time, anywhere, someone with a weapon can shoot the place up. Because, ya know, Second Amendment and all.

There's been more than one a day this year. THIS YEAR.

Tell me again about how important it is to have gun ownership. Especially of AK-47's and the like?

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Seriously. For self defence, a hand gun should do it.
For fear of the government, you're always fucked.
What the hell do you need war weapons in private households for, in a civilized country? I just... gawd I can't.

Kylabelle said:

Some background on the shooters.

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Well, that story--if it's correct--kinda ends the angle of an argument at the party causing all of this, no? They were prepping all along. And I'm hearing at least one of them had a GoPro on, as well.

One thing that's truly puzzling: Though this event continues to appear as something triggered by an altercation at the center, if that is so then how and why did these people have such quick access to assault weapons and gear, so that it appears to have been a mission that was planned out in advance.

And they left a six-month old baby behind.

ETA: Rob, yes, this seems to be the central mystery at this time. The story doesn't add up, at all.

Kylabelle said:

ETA: Rob, yes, this seems to be the central mystery at this time. The story doesn't add up, at all.

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Well, it adds up if this attack was something along the lines of Paris, whether these people were linked to ISIS or just fanboys copycating Paris.

But that was a hard thing to recognize in the beginning, no doubt.

In WWII the Japanese enacted a terror plan of launching balloons filled with hydrogen across the Pacific. These balloons would then fall and cause major fires on US soil. However, the US government kept all mention of the fires out of the papers, out of the radio reports. The Japanese stopped, because they figured it wasn't working.

When I got home last night, ABC had live coverage of the event a good part of the evening. I think these things should not be reported in the national media. Clearly, we're promoting gun violence with wall to wall coverage and inviting and encouraging copycats. Because, let's face it...a frightened populace is easier to control, to manipulate, and force more and more police state measures.

I want off this fucking pathetic world of psychopaths. I'm done.

So, that's your conclusion now?

I am still not settled about it at all. From the second link I posted, it sounds as though these people, unlike those who mounted the Paris attacks, were entirely assimilated and living staid, unremarkable lives, although Malik is a bit of a wild card, having lived in a number of places before marrying Farook.

As well, for a woman to be a key player like this is unusual.

As you yourself said, let's not jump to conclusions. There is a lot of uncertainty here, and if we conclude this is "like Paris" I think we're likely to end up missing some key information. The ways it is not like Paris are significant, in other words.

ETA: Apologies, Diana, I should have quoted. I was responding to Rob's post.

robeiae said:

Well, it adds up if this attack was something along the lines of Paris, whether these people were linked to ISIS or just fanboys copycating Paris.

But that was a hard thing to recognize in the beginning, no doubt.

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I haven't heard anything yet that indicates Islamic extremism or any kind of political or religious motivation. The middle eastern background could be completely unrelated. I mean, I can still see this as an extreme case of workplace violence. Maybe he had some sort of beef with his coworkers/bosses and had planned this for a while, with his wife going along with it. Planning to do it at a holiday party where all those people would be in one place would make sense. So maybe he showed up to the party, possibly to check out the facilities (since they had rented the room he might have not been familiar with the layout), got into an argument with one of the people he didn't like, then left to go through with his plan. I don't think we know enough to make any definitive statements and if any, those statements should come from the police/FBI.

Kylabelle said:

So, that's your conclusion now?

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I don't have a conclusion. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm just saying: multiple shooters, heavily armed, planned, assault weapons, explosives (that didn't work), soft target, GoPro camera(s). That sounds more like Paris than workplace violence. And we know the Christian extremism is a dead end.

You said the story doesn't add up, but from this lens it does, or at least it does better than the other lenses people have suggested.

Still, that could change with more info.

asroc said:

I haven't heard anything yet that indicates Islamic extremism or any kind of political or religious motivation. The middle eastern background could be completely unrelated. I mean, I can still see this as an extreme case of workplace violence. Maybe he had some sort of beef with his coworkers/bosses and had planned this for a while, with his wife going along with it. Planning to do it at a holiday party where all those people would be in one place would make sense. So maybe he showed up to the party, possibly to check out the facilities (since they had rented the room he might have I been familiar with the layout), got into an argument with one of the people he didn't like, then left to go through with his plan. I don't think we know enough to make any definitive statements and if any, those statements should come from the police/FBI.

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Again, I had no intention to a make a definitive statement. Just noting a narrative that currently fits the facts better than some other ones at this point in time.

Fair enough.

IMO the ways it differs from Paris are as significant as the ways it is similar. I don't think it serves well to begin invoking Paris when that remains so. Even if no conclusion is yet firmly drawn, that comparison tends to obscure what may be key elements in this.

That no motive is discoverable yet and that Farook's family is shattered by the shooting strikes me as something we should not gloss over with a shrug.

I do believe, however, that the discovery of an arsenal of assault weaponry ought to tell us something about a few steps we could take to at least reduce the ease with which such attacks could happen in the future. Availability of assault equipment on the open market is just absurd.

Kylabelle said:

IMO the ways it differs from Paris are as significant as the ways it is similar.

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Which is why I added the "fanboy" narrative.

I don't think it serves well to begin invoking Paris when that remains so.

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But invoking Trump, the NRA, and Christian extremists is a-okay. Got it.

Even if no conclusion is yet firmly drawn, that comparison tends to obscure what may be key elements in this.

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We're thinking people, no? WTF is being obscured? Again, I just noted that such a narrative fits better right now than the workplace violence one, that it fits the available facts to some degree. It's as a much of a possibility as anything else, right? So we shouldn't speak of it because why, exactly?

I don't like narrative-making in these situations either. At least until some actual facts emerge. I guess it's inevitable as people try to make sense of things as soon as possible, but people get attached to their stories.

I don't know that I'd say it fits 'better' - he's a guy with an apparently crappy family history who stockpiled both legal and illegal guns and then shot up people at a place he works at. For some stupid reason, he got his wife to go along with it. (Or hell, maybe it was her idea, who knows at this point).

There was another couple that staged an assault on a Walmart (?) last year. IIRC, they had an anti-government thing going on. It's also possible it was a combination sort of thing - maybe somebody in his workplace was on an anti-refugee or anti-Muslim kick last week and he snapped.

Could also be that we'll never really know.