Conflicting feedback from betas...

LBecktell · Nov 27, 2015

Hi all! First post (that's not in the newbie intro forum!)

I've been working with about 6 beta readers. I've gotten the following feedback from 3 of them:

"Too much world building! I don't really care about the world that much. Please just focus on these fascinating characters."

And this from the other 3:

"I need more world building! Your characters are so good, but I need to know these very specific details about the world they inhabit!"

So the result is me saying this:

"I think I'll just drink until i forget that I ever wrote a novel." :gone:

So, what do you guys think? The problem is this: my MS is what I (and, actually, these readers!) would consider fairly complete. At 145,000 words that have been edited and clipped and fussed over, I'm struggling to see what the second group sees. The second group wants "just a few sentences here and there" to give these (what I think are somewhat nitpicky) details. They are also big fans of involved fantasy and sci-fi novels, could that be it?

cornflake · Nov 27, 2015

LBecktell said:
Hi all! First post (that's not in the newbie intro forum!)

I've been working with about 6 beta readers. I've gotten the following feedback from 3 of them:

"Too much world building! I don't really care about the world that much. Please just focus on these fascinating characters."

And this from the other 3:

"I need more world building! Your characters are so good, but I need to know these very specific details about the world they inhabit!"

So the result is me saying this:

"I think I'll just drink until i forget that I ever wrote a novel."

So, what do you guys think? The problem is this: my MS is what I (and, actually, these readers!) would consider fairly complete. At 145,000 words that have been edited and clipped and fussed over, I'm struggling to see what the second group sees. The second group wants "just a few sentences here and there" to give these (what I think are somewhat nitpicky) details. They are also big fans of involved fantasy and sci-fi novels, could that be it?

If you're talking about one, 145k-word novel, it needs to be cut, so adding anything seems the opposite way to go.

Who are the betas? I mean in a general sense - like, what experience do they have, are they close to you, etc.

This isn't the thing you're currently querying, right?

Brightdreamer · Nov 27, 2015

Personally, as a general rule of thumb, I'd err on the side of less (unneeded) worldbuilding. And I love me a good, involved fantasy world... but a world is nothing without characters to make me care about it, or a solid story to take me through said world, so they get priority. That said, if it's a really awesome-wonderful world, maybe include an appendix with more details for those who want it, and where it won't bug those who don't.

Sounds like the story and characters are pretty solid, if the main quibble is on the level of worldbuilding - which means it may be time to start looking for an agent or publisher (if you're going the traditional route.) Feedback from them will carry more weight than betas; if they say add or cut worldbuilding, heed their words.

JMHO, naturally...

Dreity · Nov 27, 2015

I don't think the situation is dire enough to drink yourself into oblivion.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Note that all six betas said you have awesome characters, and honestly that's probably going to carry more weight with the average reader than great worldbuilding.

It sounds like it's just a matter of taste. Some readers want a more detailed world, others don't really care about the topography, culture, whatever, unless it's concretely and immediately affecting the character.

Congratulate yourself on writing a novel with characters that beta readers have unanimously declared fascinating. That's a REALLY good sign. The rest of it is subjective taste. It's good to prepare yourself now for the idea that even though people don't like the way you've done something, that doesn't automatically mean you've done it "wrong". That's a decision you're going to have to make on your own. How do YOU feel about your worldbuilding? Does your gut say too much or not enough? Do those feelings change from scene to scene, meaning you might just have one more round of fine-tuning to do?

And I know you know this, but there are even going to be people out there who find those same "fascinating" characters flat, dull, whiny, too something or not enough of another, etc.

Okay, NOW you can start drinking. :tongue

LBecktell · Nov 27, 2015

cornflake said:
If you're talking about one, 145k-word novel, it needs to be cut, so adding anything seems the opposite way to go.

Who are the betas? I mean in a general sense - like, what experience do they have, are they close to you, etc.

This isn't the thing you're currently querying, right?

Hi there! Thanks for the reply. Yes, this is the work I am currently querying. Two of the six betas are English majors, one is a professor in the creative writing department at my university, and the other three are just self-proclaimed literary enthusiasts. A couple of them are close to me, but the majority of them are people I found through the writing department on campus, or through mutual friendships. I can see where you're going with that, though--perhaps they aren't critiquing my work with a harsh enough eye?

I'm struggling with the length myself, but to be honest I am personally having issues seeing where it could have things cut out of it. (Hence why I had others try to help.) I've received no feedback in the realm of it being too wordy or long, especially after the latest draft went out. In fact, the comments on world building are all I received in this latest go-round, after fixing a bunch of suggested "telling not showing" areas. It's frustrating and hard--I'm sure you understand! I specifically asked them this go-around to brutally eliminate what they think should go... But no one came back with more than a few tiny paragraphs in total here or there.

LBecktell · Nov 27, 2015

Brightdreamer said:
Personally, as a general rule of thumb, I'd err on the side of less (unneeded) worldbuilding. And I love me a good, involved fantasy world... but a world is nothing without characters to make me care about it, or a solid story to take me through said world, so they get priority. That said, if it's a really awesome-wonderful world, maybe include an appendix with more details for those who want it, and where it won't bug those who don't.

Sounds like the story and characters are pretty solid, if the main quibble is on the level of worldbuilding - which means it may be time to start looking for an agent or publisher (if you're going the traditional route.) Feedback from them will carry more weight than betas; if they say add or cut worldbuilding, heed their words.

JMHO, naturally...

Thanks!

My very first iteration had a big greasy prologue that seemed to horrify everyone who read it. That got scrapped and replaced with little bits of world building dialogue throughout the whole work, which I thought (of course) worked way better. Your words are encouraging, thank you.

LBecktell · Nov 27, 2015

Dreity said:
I don't think the situation is dire enough to drink yourself into oblivion. Quite the opposite, in fact. Note that all six betas said you have awesome characters, and honestly that's probably going to carry more weight with the average reader than great worldbuilding.

It sounds like it's just a matter of taste. Some readers want a more detailed world, others don't really care about the topography, culture, whatever, unless it's concretely and immediately affecting the character.

Congratulate yourself on writing a novel with characters that beta readers have unanimously declared fascinating. That's a REALLY good sign. The rest of it is subjective taste. It's good to prepare yourself now for the idea that even though people don't like the way you've done something, that doesn't automatically mean you've done it "wrong". That's a decision you're going to have to make on your own. How do YOU feel about your worldbuilding? Does your gut say too much or not enough? Do those feelings change from scene to scene, meaning you might just have one more round of fine-tuning to do?

And I know you know this, but there are even going to be people out there who find those same "fascinating" characters flat, dull, whiny, too something or not enough of another, etc.

Okay, NOW you can start drinking.

But wine is so good...

I'm dreading the day when someone I respect and love in real life looks at me and tells me that they don't like my fictional characters. But, like death and taxes, it will inevitably happen...

cornflake · Nov 27, 2015

LBecktell said:
Hi there! Thanks for the reply. Yes, this is the work I am currently querying. Two of the six betas are English majors, one is a professor in the creative writing department at my university, and the other three are just self-proclaimed literary enthusiasts. A couple of them are close to me, but the majority of them are people I found through the writing department on campus, or through mutual friendships. I can see where you're going with that, though--perhaps they aren't critiquing my work with a harsh enough eye?

I'm struggling with the length myself, but to be honest I am personally having issues seeing where it could have things cut out of it. (Hence why I had others try to help.) I've received no feedback in the realm of it being too wordy or long, especially after the latest draft went out. In fact, the comments on world building are all I received in this latest go-round, after fixing a bunch of suggested "telling not showing" areas. It's frustrating and hard--I'm sure you understand!

Do NOT query something you're still fussing with and haven't even edited from beta feedback. Why're you doing that?

I asked for that reason and because from what I could tell, none recommended cutting. Given the length, that sends up red flags. I obviously have no idea who these people are, their experience level, knowledge or anything else, but I will say that 'English major,' is utterly meaningless in this regard.

Oh, it can be cut.

Once you've got 50 posts under your belt, you can put up an excerpt in the relevant Share Your Work section of the site (password: vista), and see what people think. You'll get honest, usually experienced opinions, and a bunch of them. You can also put up your query in Query Letter Hell (also in the SYW section). Usually even a couple thousand words will expose stuff that runs throughout.

You can also find beta readers here, though that's a monster and most people willing to beta take on posters they know to some extent, from seeing them around the forum. The best ways to get to 50 posts and build your own critting and editing skills are to crit other works. You can't post your own for review until you've got 50, but you can crit others' work.

For the love of marshmallows though, stop querying!!

LBecktell · Nov 27, 2015

Dreity said:
I don't think the situation is dire enough to drink yourself into oblivion. Quite the opposite, in fact. Note that all six betas said you have awesome characters, and honestly that's probably going to carry more weight with the average reader than great worldbuilding.

It sounds like it's just a matter of taste. Some readers want a more detailed world, others don't really care about the topography, culture, whatever, unless it's concretely and immediately affecting the character.

Congratulate yourself on writing a novel with characters that beta readers have unanimously declared fascinating. That's a REALLY good sign. The rest of it is subjective taste. It's good to prepare yourself now for the idea that even though people don't like the way you've done something, that doesn't automatically mean you've done it "wrong". That's a decision you're going to have to make on your own. How do YOU feel about your worldbuilding? Does your gut say too much or not enough? Do those feelings change from scene to scene, meaning you might just have one more round of fine-tuning to do?

And I know you know this, but there are even going to be people out there who find those same "fascinating" characters flat, dull, whiny, too something or not enough of another, etc.

Okay, NOW you can start drinking.

cornflake said:
Do NOT query something you're still fussing with and haven't even edited from beta feedback. Why're you doing that?

I asked for that reason and because from what I could tell, none recommended cutting. Given the length, that sends up red flags. I obviously have no idea who these people are, their experience level, knowledge or anything else, but I will say that 'English major,' is utterly meaningless in this regard.

Oh, it can be cut. Once you've got 50 posts under your belt, you can put up an excerpt in the relevant Share Your Work section of the site (password: vista), and see what people think. You'll get honest, usually experienced opinions, and a bunch of them. You can also put up your query in Query Letter Hell (also in the SYW section). Usually even a couple thousand words will expose stuff that runs throughout.

You can also find beta readers here, though that's a monster and most people willing to beta take on posters they know to some extent, from seeing them around the forum. The best ways to get to 50 posts and build your own critting and editing skills are to crit other works. You can't post your own for review until you've got 50, but you can crit others' work.

For the love of marshmallows though, stop querying!!

Oh, how I do love marshmallows!!!

Ok--point taken. Stop querying.

The beta feedback I just received is on what I would consider a pretty complete draft, anyway... So I thought it was okay. But also... What do I know?!? NOTHING.

Which is okay, too.

Is 145K really so bad? What's the length one aims for? At this point I'm wondering if what I've got here isn't one and a half novels... Especially because i have sequels all planned out!

VeryBigBeard · Nov 27, 2015

I dunno that you absolutely have to stop querying. I get a bit of the same sense cornflake does but I also don't want to set AW up as some sort of panacea above and beyond any other beta. It's true the SYW forum is great and you will get some very good people giving you crit there, but one truism about SYW is you'll get crit regardless of how much the story needs it. There's an important art in discerning what's tweaking and what's substantive. I agree with cornflake that you need to think through if there's anything more of substance you need to work on. Really pull at your own narrative--you can't ever entirely rely on betas to do this for you; you have to know how to look at your own work, to an extent. You don't ever query a manuscript that's not ready, but only you can know if it's ready. Know you own typical confidence biases and figure out how much more crit, if any, you need to confirm.

(Note about English students, as I was one for awhile. Same applies to profs: You get some who really know stuff, and some who don't. All a beta can ever really do is give you the average reader reaction and English students are that. It doesn't invalidate their feedback, nor does it necessarily mean there's nothing you can work on in the MS, just that it's mostly working at this point, probably.)

Length: 145K is long. The main issue is it's long for a debut--remember this is a risk for a publisher that runs inverse with the quality of the book. Anything over about 140K isn't just extra paper, it can also encounter some very special binding challenges. Longer just means trickier in all sorts of ways. There have been longer debuts published. It reduces your chances, which is good reason to be extra sure about that quality before subbing. 100K is a good goal to aim for, 120K is what I've heard as a max-ish for debut fantasy. I have a feeling those may be 10-20K lower for NA dystopian but I can't really say for sure. Beyond that threshold, it's going to work against you. If you blow my socks off, I might not care.

cornflake · Nov 27, 2015

LBecktell said:
Oh, how I do love marshmallows!!!

Ok--point taken. Stop querying.

The beta feedback I just received is on what I would consider a pretty complete draft, anyway... So I thought it was okay. But also... What do I know?!? NOTHING. Which is okay, too.

Is 145K really so bad? What's the length one aims for? At this point I'm wondering if what I've got here isn't one and a half novels... Especially because i have sequels all planned out!

Follow your process. It's a 'pretty complete draft.' So you query a bunch of agents, they all reject and then you think 'oh, maybe I should add more X or take out Y, or a couple other betas come back with the best suggestions that you think will make the book 10x better. Now what? You already queried the agents you liked.

Or, some reject, a couple say 'well, I liked X but Y just wasn't fleshed out/edited enough, but maybe someone else will like it.' Again, now what? There's always the chance agents will make suggestions that you'll take, but if you're at the place you're still pondering what to do with suggestions and are calling it a 'pretty complete draft' how would you feel in the above scenarios?

Yes, it's so bad; I mean I've certainly seen worse but... Generally, fantasy/sci-fi runs longer than any other genre, and the TOP there is generally considered to be 120k. That's not to say a longer work can never be accepted, but it's a big hurdle to overcome, and there are agents who will see the length and bin the query just on that. If it's that long, every word has to be valuable as hell, and that's rarely the case. Take a look through SYW threads and see the people who swore their work couldn't be cut, only to watch people here cut it, which was often a helpful revelation.

cornflake · Nov 27, 2015

Just as a point of clarity, I wasn't suggesting the OP's betas weren't good, or that English majors can't be great betas. Just that the responses - from what I can glean, obvs. - sent up red flags for me, and that being an English major is not, in itself, any kind of qualification or standard for beta reading.

There's also value in having a general reader feedback, but if you're looking for specifics, I think you should find betas that know how to assess what you've got. These people are not, in any way, all here, and all betas here aren't of equal value to everyone or anyone.

VeryBigBeard · Nov 27, 2015

cornflake said:
Just as a point of clarity, I wasn't suggesting the OP's betas weren't good, or that English majors can't be great betas. Just that the responses - from what I can glean, obvs. - sent up red flags for me, and that being an English major is not, in itself, any kind of qualification or standard for beta reading.

There's also value in having a general reader feedback, but if you're looking for specifics, I think you should find betas that know how to assess what you've got. These people are not, in any way, all here, and all betas here aren't of equal value to everyone or anyone.

Fair. Apologies if I read too much into that. And follow your process is what this all comes down to.

Roxxsmom · Nov 27, 2015

LBecktell said:
Hi all! First post (that's not in the newbie intro forum!)

I've been working with about 6 beta readers. I've gotten the following feedback from 3 of them:

"Too much world building! I don't really care about the world that much. Please just focus on these fascinating characters."

And this from the other 3:

"I need more world building! Your characters are so good, but I need to know these very specific details about the world they inhabit!"

So the result is me saying this:

"I think I'll just drink until i forget that I ever wrote a novel."

So, what do you guys think? The problem is this: my MS is what I (and, actually, these readers!) would consider fairly complete. At 145,000 words that have been edited and clipped and fussed over, I'm struggling to see what the second group sees. The second group wants "just a few sentences here and there" to give these (what I think are somewhat nitpicky) details. They are also big fans of involved fantasy and sci-fi novels, could that be it?

Don't turn to drink. Speculative fiction writers tend to have trouble threading that needle. Different readers have different expectations, and it can be maddening. It doesn't help if your betas are used to Robert Jordon style fat fantasies with 100 page prologues. This approach is not generally a good idea for debut fantasy writers, even if your manuscript is longer than the recommended length.

So some questions:

How well do your betas know (and read in) the current fantasy market? Are they Tolkien (or Jordan fans), or are they more versed with what's been selling in the past few years? Conversely, are they fonder of the style of fantasy that has very little world building at all because the story's set in a standard-issue fairy tale world where certain things about the cultural norms are a given?

Are any of them not generally into fantasy at all? People who are used to reading speculative fiction are more used to having to piece some things together. They might even like it.

Look between the lines. What things specifically are the people who want more world building confused about? What specifically are the people who think there's too much finding dull? Maybe they're different things and you can accommodate both.

Sometimes the way through the needle of conflicting crits is going to be something different from what either person suggested. Remember Gaiman's eighth law of writing--if someone says something isn't working, they're probably right, but if they try to tell you exactly what it is or how exactly to fix it, they're probably wrong.

And King said in his On Writing that ties go to the writer. Think about what you're trying to accomplish with your world building and why you've done things the way you have. There may be places you could trim info dumping, for instance, and places you could dribble more in. Or maybe you're doing things just fine. This might be a place where I'd consider setting it aside and coming back to reread my own manuscript with "fresh eyes," as if it were a novel.

frimble3 · Nov 28, 2015

LBecktell said:
This struck me as interesting:

I need to know these very specific details about the world they inhabit!

Click to expand...

This came from 3 betas? Did they each want different details, or were all looking for the same ones? Because if they each want different 'nit-picky' details, that aren't important to the story, I'd write it off as their personal whim and ignore those particular suggestions.
They all seem to like your characters, focus on that.

Once! · Nov 28, 2015

Opinions vary.

Some people like lots of world-building in their books. Some don't. Engineery types want to know how a speed of light engine works. I just want to watch Captain Kirk snog Uhura. Or maybe that should be Spock in the reboot universe. At some point you as the author will have to make up your mind about what you want. If you try to please everyone you will never write anything.

One thing that might be worth exploring with your betas is the Spice Girls question - tell me what you want, what you really really want? Do they want more world-building in this novel or do they want to see more of your world in a sequel? What specifically do they want to know more about?

One other thought. It often isn't a binary choice between characters or world building. Sometimes we can do both at the same time. Can you please both groups of betas by showing your characters interacting more with this world?

Sonsofthepharaohs · Nov 28, 2015

Once! said:
One thing that might be worth exploring with your betas is the Spice Girls question - tell me what you want, what you really really want? Do they want more world-building in this novel or do they want to see more of your world in a sequel? What specifically do they want to know more about?

This reminds me of trying to build a dashboard report at work - the customer asked to see certain stats in a one page view that would update live. We built exactly what they asked for. They came back and complained that it didn't show this that and the other data, with calculations and averages over a particular period - which they had asked for in a separate fortnightly report (not live, static data published to a reporting schedule). I had to go back to the report specification, and explain that all their needs were met, but by two different products. There was no way all their requirements could be met by one product because they were fundamentally different beasts.

In short, sometimes the customer knows what they want, but not how it should be delivered. The solutions specialist (in this case, the author) just has to present the product and accept that it may not meet everyone's preconceived vision, but that doesn't mean it isn't fit for purpose.

LBecktell · Nov 28, 2015

VeryBigBeard said:
Length: 145K is long. The main issue is it's long for a debut--remember this is a risk for a publisher that runs inverse with the quality of the book. Anything over about 140K isn't just extra paper, it can also encounter some very special binding challenges. Longer just means trickier in all sorts of ways. There have been longer debuts published. It reduces your chances, which is good reason to be extra sure about that quality before subbing. 100K is a good goal to aim for, 120K is what I've heard as a max-ish for debut fantasy. I have a feeling those may be 10-20K lower for NA dystopian but I can't really say for sure. Beyond that threshold, it's going to work against you. If you blow my socks off, I might not care.

Thanks for this!

I actually had no idea about these length things...I can see now how the length alone might deter an agent from even glancing at my manuscript. Thanks for the feedback!

Sonsofthepharaohs · Nov 28, 2015

cornflake said:
Yes, it's so bad; I mean I've certainly seen worse but... Generally, fantasy/sci-fi runs longer than any other genre, and the TOP there is generally considered to be 120k. That's not to say a longer work can never be accepted, but it's a big hurdle to overcome, and there are agents who will see the length and bin the query just on that. If it's that long, every word has to be valuable as hell, and that's rarely the case. Take a look through SYW threads and see the people who swore their work couldn't be cut, only to watch people here cut it, which was often a helpful revelation.

I really don't know if length is the be all and end all that people make it out to be. I mean, if an agent isn't in love with the MS, they're not going to rep it anyway. If they are in love with it, they're not going to reject it because it doesn't fit some arbitrary wordcount criteria.

My agent told me to aim for 130k. I turned in 184k. She asked me to thin out 6 chapters from the middle (mainly for pace), after which it was 178k. We're now shopping it. Wordcount has never been mentioned, either by my agent or publishers. I think it's actually quite far down their list of reasons not to acquire a novel.

LBecktell · Nov 28, 2015

cornflake said:
Follow your process. It's a 'pretty complete draft.' So you query a bunch of agents, they all reject and then you think 'oh, maybe I should add more X or take out Y, or a couple other betas come back with the best suggestions that you think will make the book 10x better. Now what? You already queried the agents you liked.

I'm embarrassed to say that my querying process has been kind of systematic. I know you're probably rolling your eyes at me, but I bought a book of listings and have been slowly circling ten at a time, going to their websites, reading their blogs, checking out the work they already represent, and if it seems like a good fit...querying. I would certainly say that I'd be happy being represented by any of the agents I queried, but I wouldn't say that I have TeenBeat style cutouts of their faces on my wall. Is that bad? Am I screwing this up? I honestly have no idea. (Becoming more and more grateful for finding AW by the second.)

cornflake said:
Or, some reject, a couple say 'well, I liked X but Y just wasn't fleshed out/edited enough, but maybe someone else will like it.' Again, now what? There's always the chance agents will make suggestions that you'll take, but if you're at the place you're still pondering what to do with suggestions and are calling it a 'pretty complete draft' how would you feel in the above scenarios?

I guess I'd take the opinion of an agent over the opinion of one of my betas, especially considering that the agent will have had greater experience with actually selling written works. I'd return, meekly, to my drawing board.

cornflake said:
Yes, it's so bad; I mean I've certainly seen worse but... Generally, fantasy/sci-fi runs longer than any other genre, and the TOP there is generally considered to be 120k. That's not to say a longer work can never be accepted, but it's a big hurdle to overcome, and there are agents who will see the length and bin the query just on that. If it's that long, every word has to be valuable as hell, and that's rarely the case. Take a look through SYW threads and see the people who swore their work couldn't be cut, only to watch people here cut it, which was often a helpful revelation.

I feel like getting down to at LEAST 120K is manageable. I'm sure my language isn't as tight and muscular as it could be. I agree that perhaps not every word is valuable as hell--and I'll certainly be combing through SYW over the weekend to get an idea of what to cut.

I deeply appreciate the time you're putting into helping me, by the way. You seem very knowledgeable, and I've never had...sniff...real writing friends before!

LBecktell · Nov 28, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
How well do your betas know (and read in) the current fantasy market?

I don't know the true answer to this. They do read--a lot--but I don't know how much of it is current.

Roxxsmom said:
Are they Tolkien (or Jordan fans), or are they more versed with what's been selling in the past few years?

The three that wanted more world-building are totally Tolkien fans. The other three told me they couldn't get though the LOTR books due to the excessive detail. I'm somewhere in the middle as far as tastes go, myself.

Roxxsmom said:
Conversely, are they fonder of the style of fantasy that has very little world building at all because the story's set in a standard-issue fairy tale world where certain things about the cultural norms are a given?

I'm a fan of this. In fact, my world was specifically designed to be very similar to the world we know and live in today, barring a few key items. I felt that I'd outlined those key items well, and it seems like I have...for 50% of readers. :tongue

Roxxsmom said:
Are any of them not generally into fantasy at all? People who are used to reading speculative fiction are more used to having to piece some things together. They might even like it.

Look between the lines. What things specifically are the people who want more world building confused about? What specifically are the people who think there's too much finding dull? Maybe they're different things and you can accommodate both.

They want to know what the space colonies that the characters live on looks like. That's it. They just want me to throw in "a few sentences where the main character is looking out the window of a shuttle and describes the colonies she sees."

Roxxsmom said:
Sometimes the way through the needle of conflicting crits is going to be something different from what either person suggested. Remember Gaiman's eighth law of writing--if someone says something isn't working, they're probably right, but if they try to tell you exactly what it is or how exactly to fix it, they're probably wrong.

Thanks for this! So glad I joined this forum.

- - - Updated - - -

Kallithrix said:
I really don't know if length is the be all and end all that people make it out to be. I mean, if an agent isn't in love with the MS, they're not going to rep it anyway. If they are in love with it, they're not going to reject it because it doesn't fit some arbitrary wordcount criteria.

My agent told me to aim for 130k. I turned in 184k. She asked me to thin out 6 chapters from the middle (mainly for pace), after which it was 178k. We're now shopping it. Wordcount has never been mentioned, either by my agent or publishers. I think it's actually quite far down their list of reasons not to acquire a novel.

Did you query with a long MS, though? I'm concerned now that the length alone will get people to turn it away.

bonitakale · Nov 28, 2015

Worldbuilding is fun for many of us to read, but it does slow the story. It's more necessary for you to know the details than for the reader to know them. If your readers want more, you can do a sequel that fleshes out the world.

LBecktell · Nov 28, 2015

bonitakale said:
Worldbuilding is fun for many of us to read, but it does slow the story. It's more necessary for you to know the details than for the reader to know them. If your readers want more, you can do a sequel that fleshes out the world.

Coincidentally, when posed with the question "If you knew there was a sequel, would this be an issue for you?", the betas all said no.

cornflake · Nov 28, 2015

Kallithrix said:
I really don't know if length is the be all and end all that people make it out to be. I mean, if an agent isn't in love with the MS, they're not going to rep it anyway. If they are in love with it, they're not going to reject it because it doesn't fit some arbitrary wordcount criteria.

My agent told me to aim for 130k. I turned in 184k. She asked me to thin out 6 chapters from the middle (mainly for pace), after which it was 178k. We're now shopping it. Wordcount has never been mentioned, either by my agent or publishers. I think it's actually quite far down their list of reasons not to acquire a novel.

That's your agent though - if you were querying widely with a 180k novel, I think you'd get rejections on length, though who's to say.

Also, I did say it's not impossible. If you write tight and it's justifiable in the pages... Most people with outsize length don't and it isn't, from what I've ever seen.

Dennis E. Taylor · Nov 28, 2015

LBecktell said:
"I think I'll just drink until i forget that I ever wrote a novel."

I need to clarify this, and I'm surprised no one pointed it out. It's a common fallacy that drinking is exclusive, i.e. write or drink, write or query. It's not exclusive. You can do both. In fact, tequila makes a particularly good lubricant for these types of pursuits.

On the subject of novel length and world-building, if you get picked up, there will be editing. Either your agent will do some rounds with you before the WIP is subbed, or the publisher will work with you. If you have too much, it's easy to remove some. If you have not enough, there's a question of whether you can add and preserve the quality. I'm not an editor, but if I had a choice of taking on two books, and one was too long and one was too short, I'd go with the long one.

Conflicting feedback from betas...

LBecktell

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Dreity

LBecktell

LBecktell

LBecktell

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

LBecktell

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

LBecktell

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

LBecktell

LBecktell

bonitakale

LBecktell

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!