Barbie Princess vs. "Lean, mean fighting machine."

Cobalt Jade

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Samsonet

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I'm just sad because this COULD HAVE BEEN so great. The premise sounds great. The protag sounds great.

But I'm not going to read it, because I'm against intellectual pretentiousness on principle.
 

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Link is broken.
 

Daniel_R

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Yea, that's kind of absurd, did he not see the news stories about all the girls showing up in archery shops after the hunger games released? There's nothing wrong with writing a YA thriller with a strong female protag, but if he's claiming to be the first he must have been living under a rock for the last few years. Personally I wonder if he isn't really on the tail end of the bandwagon anyway. At some point we reach a critical mass of Katniss Everdeens and I suspect things might swinging back the opposite direction, more towards Nancy Drew types who kick ass while still being feminine instead of heroines kicking butt instead of being feminine.
 

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Good point. I look forward to the day we can have Nancy Drews and Katniss Everdeens in the same book. And for the day when authors stop insulting whole genres -- or at least don't insult the genres they write in.

(I mean. Most of the time people are polite when it comes to genres they don't like. It's just that I hate it when a certain genre is treated like it was nothing before this one author thought it worthy of his attention.)
 

Latina Bunny

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Was the link broken?

At some point we reach a critical mass of Katniss Everdeens and I suspect things might swinging back the opposite direction, more towards Nancy Drew types who kick ass while still being feminine instead of heroines kicking butt instead of being feminine.

...Depends on how one defines "being feminine".

"Butt-kicking instead of 'being feminine' "? Really? Could you please explain what you mean by that?

Are we talking about lack of non-combative female characters? Characters who embrace feminity (as defined by societal norms) or doesn't devalue so-called "feminine" qualities and/or roles (as culture and society defines them)?

I can agree with some of that, but the way the comment above is phrased ("kicking butt instead of being feminine") gives me a knee jerk reaction for some reason.

To me, it sounds like some of the geat "butt-kicking" (however you define that?) female characters can't be "feminine" in a way that would fit your definition of "feminine". Is Katniss not "feminine"?

How about the following alternatives :

-How about those girls/women be defined as "tough", "warrior-like" or "combative", instead?

-Or, maybe the phrase can be defined as a wish for less combative/less warrior characters, and more domestic, small-scale, or non-combative situations?

-Or a wish for more variety in the characters?

-Or a wish for more 3-Dimensional characters?

-Or a wish for more characters in less appreciated roles, and/or a wish for more characters that have the less appreciated (by society) characteristics or traits?

(In your explanation, I would suggest avoiding anything that deals with the concept of "men with breasts".)

ETA: My issue is, the comment "kicking butt instead of being feminine" makes it sound like "butt-kicking" is exclusively a "masculine"/male thing.
 
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Ellaroni

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He self-published the book in question before being picked up, so there are a few GR reviews floating around while we all wait for this "savior of YA" to get that book out on the scene again. I don't think the congregation is as welcoming as he expects.
 

eparadysz

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Good point. I look forward to the day we can have Nancy Drews and Katniss Everdeens in the same book. And for the day when authors stop insulting whole genres -- or at least don't insult the genres they write in.

(I mean. Most of the time people are polite when it comes to genres they don't like. It's just that I hate it when a certain genre is treated like it was nothing before this one author thought it worthy of his attention.)

This. Is it really that hard to promote your own work without pissing on that of your peers? And there are pages from the book floating around (there was a link on twitter somewhere, though that part isn't in the sample that's still available on Amazon) where the MC disparages popular YA in the book. Maybe to show that the MC is that much smarter and more sophisticated than the poor fools he wants to sell the book to? Interesting strategy.
 

BriMaresh

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Re: Barbies vs. kick-ass, the way the statements about princess Barbie crap and kicking ass are phrased by the author turns it into a binary system, which is I believe what the "and being feminine" vs "instead of" was referring to, above? The false binary system created, I mean?

I sort of get irked when people try and pin The Hunger Games into that, because it's not. Katniss doesn't take it far enough to be a binary system to really represent kick-ass without femininity. Katniss has several magical dress transformation scenes, both in the book and the movies. Effie is concerned with pretty and silly things, but we learn that there is value in who Effie is, too. Prim, who is a healer, a helper. Rue, who is little, and dainty, and is covered in flowers in the end. Katniss, the flower arranger. That's a fairly feminine thing to do. There is not really an extremism, a shedding of all things feminine to kick ass, in The Hunger Games. Nor should there be. Katniss is undeniably female.

I don't think we are in desperate need of books that have varying types of femininity because of a pre-existing lack thereof. They exist. We need more of them because the world is complex and binary systems like that aren't representative of anything but bad writing.
 

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Re: Barbies vs. kick-ass, the way the statements about princess Barbie crap and kicking ass are phrased by the author turns it into a binary system, which is I believe what the "and being feminine" vs "instead of" was referring to, above? The false binary system created, I mean?

I sort of get irked when people try and pin The Hunger Games into that, because it's not. Katniss doesn't take it far enough to be a binary system to really represent kick-ass without femininity. Katniss has several magical dress transformation scenes, both in the book and the movies. Effie is concerned with pretty and silly things, but we learn that there is value in who Effie is, too. Prim, who is a healer, a helper. Rue, who is little, and dainty, and is covered in flowers in the end. Katniss, the flower arranger. That's a fairly feminine thing to do. There is not really an extremism, a shedding of all things feminine to kick ass, in The Hunger Games. Nor should there be. Katniss is undeniably female.

I don't think we are in desperate need of books that have varying types of femininity because of a pre-existing lack thereof. They exist. We need more of them because the world is complex and binary systems like that aren't representative of anything but bad writing.

Um...Yes, the rigid binary aspect is sort of part of the problem, so I agree with you on that aspect. I guess?

I understand what you're trying to say, but the small part I disagree with is the description of superficial aspects you use to equate all of feminity with (ex: Small and dainty; "concerned with pretty and silly things", really?; "flowers in hair", etc)...

So, in order to be considered "feminine", I have to be concerned with pretty and "silly things" or be "small and dainty"?

And what are these so-called "silly things"? You mean, anything that's not associated with "masculine" stuff?

So, girls/women who are considered "feminine" are concerned only with silly stuff and flowers? Men can't have any of that, either?

Some people don't fit those superficial elements of "feminity", but they're still female. Some people don't believe in or refuse to fit into the societal gender roles, binary roles/traits, etc.

It depends on the culture and society, too. What may be considered "masculine" in one culture may not be seen as such in another culture.

BTW: Many cultures are somewhat sexist (in some way), and most of them have gender roles, so...

It's not bad per se, but it's something to be mindful about. It's part of culture, and we are products of culture.

Even I have sexist moments, and I'm a feminist.

I'm mindful about it, but I have internalized the culture, and it's what I'm used to.

I (we) just have to be carful about applying generalizations to all, because not everyone will fit those generalizations.

Yeah, the binary roles and the rigid concept of "feminity" vs "masculinity" don't really suit the complexity of humans, because not everyone will fit into such rigid roles, rarely are humans are flat enough to have only one set of traits...

Basically, people are complex, and the concepts of "feminity" and "masculinity" don't really do justice to their complexity.

In the end: They're just human traits, human behaviors, and human emotions.
 
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Samsonet

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This. Is it really that hard to promote your own work without pissing on that of your peers? And there are pages from the book floating around (there was a link on twitter somewhere, though that part isn't in the sample that's still available on Amazon) where the MC disparages popular YA in the book. Maybe to show that the MC is that much smarter and more sophisticated than the poor fools he wants to sell the book to? Interesting strategy.

http://www.rachelpattinson.com/2015/11/morally-complicated-ya-or-supposed-lack.html

Oh look, she's hating on the Hunger Games!

I wish I hadn't looked this up.
 

Latina Bunny

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http://www.rachelpattinson.com/2015/11/morally-complicated-ya-or-supposed-lack.html

Oh look, she's hating on the Hunger Games!

I wish I hadn't looked this up.

Um...it's kind of confusing with the quotes being quoted from other places and the mixed up formatting...

But, isn't she defending YA against those who don't think YA can be morally complicated?

Also sounds like she's also saying Hunger Games is morally complex? (The formatting and quoting within quoting looks confusing, lol.)

Are you sure you're talking about the right person?
 
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eparadysz

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Um...it's kind of confusing with the quotes being quoted from other places and the mixed up formatting...

But, isn't she defending YA against those who don't think YA can be morally complicated?

Also sounds like she's also saying Hunger Games is morally complex? (The formatting and quoting within quoting looks confusing, lol.)

Are you sure you're talking about the right person?

I think Samsonet's "she" refers to the MC of the book, as shown in the screenshot included in the linked blog (which is what my earlier post referred to). At least that's how I interpreted it. And yes, I think you're right about what Rachel Pattinson is saying.
 

Becca C.

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Um...it's kind of confusing with the quotes being quoted from other places and the mixed up formatting...

But, isn't she defending YA against those who don't think YA can be morally complicated?

Also sounds like she's also saying Hunger Games is morally complex? (The formatting and quoting within quoting looks confusing, lol.)

Are you sure you're talking about the right person?

The character in the excerpted novel, THE CRUELTY, is hating on the Hunger Games. Not the author of the blog post.
 

Latina Bunny

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I'm trying to re-read the article again, and it looks like she is angry that YA is seen as not complex by other people.

It seems that this self-published author named Bregstrom mentioned that he self-published because he thought his YA book wouldn't be accepted by publishers because his book contained a heroine making morally ambiguous choices, etc.

According to a quote in a comments section that Rachel was quoting from, this author says that his book is more morally complicated than "most of the YA out there".

So...it's not Rachel dissing YA. It's a character, and also a (formally) self-published male author...
 
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eparadysz

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I'm trying to re-read the article again, and it looks like she is angry that YA is seen as not complex by other people.

It seems that this self-published author named Bregstrom mentioned that he self-published because he thought his YA book wouldn't be accepted by publishers because his book contained a heroine making morally ambiguous choices, etc.

According to a quote in a comments section that Rachel was quoting from, this author says that his book is more morally complicated than "most of the YA out there".

So...it's not Rachel dissing YA. It's a character, and also a (formally) self-published male author...

Right, and the self-published author is the guy who got the 6-figure deal for his morally-complicated, previously self-published book. It's just annoying that both he and his character turn up their noses at the very YA books that his presumed audience reads.
 

Viridian

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Wait a minute.

If the author's remarks are actually offensive, I think we should read the original interview, not an opinion piece.

Honestly, I don't think the author is as pretentious as the opinion piece makes him out to be. This is what he says:

As the father of two daughters, I became pretty appalled at the image of women they received from the culture. It was all princess-this, Barbie-that. It was almost a satire of femininity. My wife—a very strong, highly-motivated attorney—was appalled too. What century were we living in if the feminine ideal little girls learned about was still a woman in a pink dress and a nineteen inch waist? I decided to create a female heroine who was the opposite of all that—a young, strong female who discovers real heroism within herself.

I don't think he's saying he's the first to do this. I don't think he's presenting himself as the savior of the YA genre. I don't even think he was talking about YA specifically. I think he's just saying he doesn't like how female characters are often portrayed, so he's decided to help fix that.

And I agree with that. In certain genres (like YA) there's been a push towards more powerful female characters. More complicated female characters. More flawed female characters. And that's great, but when it comes to other genres, or even fiction in general... we're not quite there yet.

*slinks back under her chair* :chair


I read another article and changed my mind. Dude needs to stop disrespecting his audience.
 
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Samsonet

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...and this is why pronouns should have clear antecedents. :D

Sorry, Bunny-gypsy. I was referring to the character (and by extension, the author of The Cruelty).
 

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Wait a minute.

If the author's remarks are actually offensive, I think we should read the original interview, not an opinion piece.

Honestly, I don't think the author is as pretentious as the opinion piece makes him out to be. This is what he says:



I don't think he's saying he's the first to do this. I don't think he's presenting himself as the savior of the YA genre. I don't even think he was talking about YA specifically. I think he's just saying he doesn't like how female characters are often portrayed, so he's decided to help fix that.

And I agree with that. In certain genres (like YA) there's been a push towards more powerful female characters. More complicated female characters. More flawed female characters. And that's great, but when it comes to other genres, or even fiction in general... we're not quite there yet.

*slinks back under her chair* :chair

Yeah, if you based on just that quote, that doesn't sound that bad. Maybe there's more on the other links?

Oh, in my posts above, I was commenting on the blog's comments section about a different male YA author.

I think it's a different author? Or am I mixed up again? XD

It was kind of confusing. So many opinion links being linked in this thread, lol!

...and this is why pronouns should have clear antecedents. :D

Sorry, Bunny-gypsy. I was referring to the character (and by extension, the author of The Cruelty).
Lol. It's ok. I got confused because of all of the links. :p
 
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BriMaresh

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Um...Yes, the rigid binary aspect is sort of part of the problem, so I agree with you on that aspect. I guess?

I understand what you're trying to say, but the small part I disagree with is the description of superficial aspects you use to equate all of feminity with (ex: Small and dainty; "concerned with pretty and silly things", really?; "flowers in hair", etc)...

So, in order to be considered "feminine", I have to be concerned with pretty and "silly things" or be "small and dainty"?

And what are these so-called "silly things"? You mean, anything that's not associated with "masculine" stuff?

So, girls/women who are considered "feminine" are concerned only with silly stuff and flowers? Men can't have any of that, either?

Some people don't fit those superficial elements of "feminity", but they're still female. Some people don't believe in or refuse to fit into the societal gender roles, binary roles/traits, etc.

It depends on the culture and society, too. What may be considered "masculine" in one culture may not be seen as such in another culture.

BTW: Many cultures are somewhat sexist (in some way), and most of them have gender roles, so...

It's not bad per se, but it's something to be mindful about. It's part of culture, and we are products of culture.

Even I have sexist moments, and I'm a feminist.

I'm mindful about it, but I have internalized the culture, and it's what I'm used to.

I (we) just have to be carful about applying generalizations to all, because not everyone will fit those generalizations.

Yeah, the binary roles and the rigid concept of "feminity" vs "masculinity" don't really suit the complexity of humans, because not everyone will fit into such rigid roles, rarely are humans are flat enough to have only one set of traits...

Basically, people are complex, and the concepts of "feminity" and "masculinity" don't really do justice to their complexity.

In the end: They're just human traits, human behaviors, and human emotions.

Man, you probably shouldn't caution about generalities after lumping everything into a generality, yourself. It's just not cool. I literally came up with four examples of DIFFERENT portrayals of femininity (and they ARE perceive feminine traits, regardless of whether we want them to be or not), and you're trying to roll them all into one to make your point, which is a terrible way to discuss things. It requires deliberately ignoring the point to be irate, instead of considering the idea that, yes, there are different degrees and portrayals presented.

Sure, Katniss could hate all things feminine and never put on a dress and never do any of those things and still be a strong woman. But people need to quit erasing that she DID all those things, and it was painful and a lot harder than she expected, and was still a strong woman. Rue, despite being a little girl, was clever and in her own way strong. And Prim, as well, with her compassion and stereotypical healer/caring mindset again in an ENTIRELY different way was a total badass. Effie's focus on "silly" things was a paraphrase from how she's described in the books - I believe that was the way Katniss described her, as silly, though I admit I do not have the book on hand to double-check the exact wording. Katniss starts out really dismissive of Effie's focus on manners, and appearances, and so on, and ignores her value because of those perceived feminine traits. She does over time realize that this was a mistake, and that despite being stereotypical feminine, Effie has value as a person.

Anyway, my point being, these women are all strong capable and kick-ass in their own ways, and also all have traits that are from both the "kick ass" and "feminine" pot. People need to stop treating The Hunger Games like it's on the far end of the unfeminine spectrum, becasue it's not. I could list more examples of a binary system not working specifically in regards to femininity in the Hunger Games - hellsbells, Peeta makes cakes and bread, for example, I could probably write entire papers on this - but there's no point. It was an example of why the attempt to make a scale doesn't work - neither of the "extreme" ends are.

I'll add that the author seems to have put his foot in his mouth a few times. I looked at his Amazon profile, which does wander toward pretension, as well. I am always wary of people having sour grapes, but I can see where everyone is coming from on this in particular - it galls, because it shows a lack of genre-savvy, and because it does collectively dismiss other YA as less complex and overly-feminine. He's hardly the first guy to slam the YA genre before then writing in it - nor the first to try to save YA from perceived trivialities. Despite that, I think the book will speak for itself. If it's good, it'll get read, regardless. After all, people still read Ender's Game.
 

eparadysz

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It seems that this self-published author named Bregstrom mentioned that he self-published because he thought his YA book wouldn't be accepted by publishers because his book contained a heroine making morally ambiguous choices, etc.

According to a quote in a comments section that Rachel was quoting from, this author says that his book is more morally complicated than "most of the YA out there".

Oh, in my posts above, I was commenting on the blog's comments section about a different male YA author.

I think it's a different author? Or am I mixed up again? XD

Not sure which comments you were looking at, but Bergstrom is the guy who got the juicy pub deal for his self-published book, and whom everyone is quoting.
 

Latina Bunny

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Man, you probably shouldn't caution about generalities after lumping everything into a generality, yourself. It's just not cool. I literally came up with four examples of DIFFERENT portrayals of femininity (and they ARE perceive feminine traits, regardless of whether we want them to be or not), and you're trying to roll them all into one to make your point, which is a terrible way to discuss things. It requires deliberately ignoring the point to be irate, instead of considering the idea that, yes, there are different degrees and portrayals presented.

Sure, Katniss could hate all things feminine and never put on a dress and never do any of those things and still be a strong woman. But people need to quit erasing that she DID all those things, and it was painful and a lot harder than she expected, and was still a strong woman. Rue, despite being a little girl, was clever and in her own way strong. And Prim, as well, with her compassion and stereotypical healer/caring mindset again in an ENTIRELY different way was a total badass. Effie's focus on "silly" things was a paraphrase from how she's described in the books - I believe that was the way Katniss described her, as silly, though I admit I do not have the book on hand to double-check the exact wording. Katniss starts out really dismissive of Effie's focus on manners, and appearances, and so on, and ignores her value because of those perceived feminine traits. She does over time realize that this was a mistake, and that despite being stereotypical feminine, Effie has value as a person.

Anyway, my point being, these women are all strong capable and kick-ass in their own ways, and also all have traits that are from both the "kick ass" and "feminine" pot. People need to stop treating The Hunger Games like it's on the far end of the unfeminine spectrum, becasue it's not. I could list more examples of a binary system not working specifically in regards to femininity in the Hunger Games - hellsbells, Peeta makes cakes and bread, for example, I could probably write entire papers on this - but there's no point. It was an example of why the attempt to make a scale doesn't work - neither of the "extreme" ends are.

I'll add that the author seems to have put his foot in his mouth a few times. I looked at his Amazon profile, which does wander toward pretension, as well. I am always wary of people having sour grapes, but I can see where everyone is coming from on this in particular - it galls, because it shows a lack of genre-savvy, and because it does collectively dismiss other YA as less complex and overly-feminine. He's hardly the first guy to slam the YA genre before then writing in it - nor the first to try to save YA from perceived trivialities. Despite that, I think the book will speak for itself. If it's good, it'll get read, regardless. After all, people still read Ender's Game.

Huh?

Um, I don't understand.

I feel you really are generalizing, in a way.

You don't put them into a binary, but I feel you're still putting a specifi gender or sex into different categories or "flavors"--which is still generalizing in my eyes.

ETA: Maybe I'm not making myself clear. The activities you described are not bad (ex: putting flowers on head; putting on dresses; getting pretty; "silly things"; etc). They're perfectly fine.

I just disagree in tying such activities to a gender or sex.

What if a woman or girl doesn't tick off those activities? I guess they're no longer "feminine" enough? So does that mean she is more "masculine", or "more like a man"? Is this a problem?

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other?

I know men and women are different in some biological ways (the biological sex factor).

I also know the reality that men and women are treated differently (and sometimes unfairly and unequally) by society and culture.

However, Femininity and masculinity concepts as well as gender roles are social concepts (or social constructs as some people call them) created by society/culture.

I'm a feminist, but even I can have sexist thoughts and ideas because I have internalized some of society's cruddy sexism and rigid gender roles.

We may also just have different philosopies on whether or not this is a good thing for everyone, since not everyone fits to the stupid rigid norms, nor do everyone get treated right because of which norms are valued more.

I'm also aware that some people don't want to accept the "feminine" and "masculine" or gender role concepts because they feel that such labels doesn't describe them, or they don't fit under specific labels.

Anyway, I don't think I understand your point nor do you understand mine, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Some people accept gender roles and other social contructs, other people don't. And there are other people who accept some of the social constructs, but realize that not everyone benefits from or fits with the social constructs.

Like life, stuff like this is complicated. :)
 
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