Third person stories

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gettingby

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I can do a story written in close third, but when I try to be less close or omniscient, I get called out on POV things like head hopping or POV switches where I just couldn't see the problems. I don't want to feel like I have to always do a close third person story, but it seems to be the only way I can avoid making these kind of mistakes in third person stories. How do you train yourself to notice and avoid these problems? I know reading is often an answer to many writer issues, but that really hasn't helped me figure this out. And I read all the time. I would love to hear if any of you have struggled with this and what you have done about it.
 

Lillith1991

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I can do a story written in close third, but when I try to be less close or omniscient, I get called out on POV things like head hopping or POV switches where I just couldn't see the problems. I don't want to feel like I have to always do a close third person story, but it seems to be the only way I can avoid making these kind of mistakes in third person stories. How do you train yourself to notice and avoid these problems? I know reading is often an answer to many writer issues, but that really hasn't helped me figure this out. And I read all the time. I would love to hear if any of you have struggled with this and what you have done about it.

The first thing to come to mind is to treat the narrator in your 3rd Omni stories as a character of their own. Give them a personality of some sort that's distinct from the characters being followed.
 

kuwisdelu

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Indeed.

I don't often write 3rd omni, but when I do, I write it like 1st person.

Also, I'm The Most Interesting Man in the World.
 
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gettingby

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The first thing to come to mind is to treat the narrator in your 3rd Omni stories as a character of their own. Give them a personality of some sort that's distinct from the characters being followed.

I don't really understand this. I get what you're saying if someone is writing in close third, but I can't figure out how this works for omniscient. That could be part of my problem, but I just don't now how to translate what you are saying into something I can use.
 

gettingby

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Indeed.

I don't often write 3rd omni, but when I do, I write it like 1st person.

Also, I'm The Most Interesting Man in the World.

I've been waiting my whole life to meet the most interesting man in the world. Thanks for showing up. ;). How can you write omniscient like first person? Or maybe that was a joke? I don't know.
 

Lillith1991

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I don't really understand this. I get what you're saying if someone is writing in close third, but I can't figure out how this works for omniscient. That could be part of my problem, but I just don't now how to translate what you are saying into something I can use.

That's the tricky part. Treating the narrator as a character like in close third is what I mean, because that's exactly what they are. The Omni narrator is a character in their own right, though we may never know if they're a part of the story or some all seeing god looking down on events. What separates them from the close third narrator is the ability to dip into the minds and lives of other characters as is needed, not how they're portrayed. It's hard to explain, so I'm sure part of the issue is my description and it isn't just you. But think of Omni like working with two characters at the exact same time in every scene, only they don't interact. They're separate people/beings/whatever, but still occupy the same exact space at the exact same time.
 

WriterBN

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I don't really understand this. I get what you're saying if someone is writing in close third, but I can't figure out how this works for omniscient. That could be part of my problem, but I just don't now how to translate what you are saying into something I can use.

Try reading the first couple of pages of Harry Potter #1. Even though Rowling zooms in close to Harry for much of the series, that first page (actually, even just the first sentence) establishes the narrator's voice right away.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I can do a story written in close third, but when I try to be less close or omniscient, I get called out on POV things like head hopping or POV switches where I just couldn't see the problems. I don't want to feel like I have to always do a close third person story, but it seems to be the only way I can avoid making these kind of mistakes in third person stories. How do you train yourself to notice and avoid these problems? I know reading is often an answer to many writer issues, but that really hasn't helped me figure this out. And I read all the time. I would love to hear if any of you have struggled with this and what you have done about it.


~First, forget "close or "distant" third. These have no meaning. You're either in third person limited, or you're not. There is no "close" and "distant" third limited.

Third limited is pretty simple. You can only write what a single character sees, hears, knows, thinks, feels, hears, believes, tastes, etc. That's it.

If that one character can't see it, hear it, know it, think it, feel it, taste it, believe it, then you can't write it. If you do write it, it's head-hopping.

Omni is very different, and few writers understand what Omni is, or what it's for. You can't head-hop and call it omni. Omni is not about head-hopping. Like all POVs, omni is about distance. It's about getting the main character further from the reader, and, in fact, keeping all characters away from the reader. New writers usually fail at omni because they don't understand that POV is about distance.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Indeed.

I don't often write 3rd omni, but when I do, I write it like 1st person.

Also, I'm The Most Interesting Man in the World.

How do you manage that? Third person limited is written exactly like first person. Omniscient, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of first person.
 

Jamesaritchie

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The first thing to come to mind is to treat the narrator in your 3rd Omni stories as a character of their own. Give them a personality of some sort that's distinct from the characters being followed.

I think that's a terrible idea, unless you make the omni character an actual character, as in The Watcher comics. Otherwise, you're going to violate the number one rule of omni, which is to get inside no character's head, including that of the narrator.

Omni, like all POVs, is about distance, not about personalities, or whose head you can get into. You shouldn't get inside anyone's head in omni. There's a huge difference between knowing what a character thinks, and actually getting inside that character's head. The first means omni, the second just means head-hopping, and head-hopping is as bad in omni as in third limited.
 

gettingby

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I think that's a terrible idea, unless you make the omni character an actual character, as in The Watcher comics. Otherwise, you're going to violate the number one rule of omni, which is to get inside no character's head, including that of the narrator.

Omni, like all POVs, is about distance, not about personalities, or whose head you can get into. You shouldn't get inside anyone's head in omni. There's a huge difference between knowing what a character thinks, and actually getting inside that character's head. The first means omni, the second just means head-hopping, and head-hopping is as bad in omni as in third limited.

Can you say a little more about this because I think it will help me? Sorry if this sounds really stupid, but I think my problem could be not really understanding the difference between showing what a character is thinking vs. getting in their head.

Also, I guess I just meant third limited when I said close third. I wasn't trying to make things more complicated or confusing than they already are for me. Thanks for all the comments.
 

blacbird

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my problem could be not really understanding the difference between showing what a character is thinking vs. getting in their head.

Among the best ways of "showing" what a character is thinking are dialogue and actions. After all, that's how we usually interpret the intentions and motivations of other people; unless you're telepathic, you can't really "get into their heads."

In narrative, that's a different technique from directly expressed thoughts[/i8] attributed to individual characters. And often, IMO as a reader, a more effective one.

caw
 
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