Male vs Female Characteristics

As a transgender person, I'm here to feverishly assert that there is literally no such thing as a male or female characteristic. Implying that there is is incredibly insensitive and harmful towards people who do not fit in the narrow boxes assigned to different genders, such as myself.

A nurturing attitude is not a female characteristic. Liking cars and hunting is not a male characteristic. It's quite sexist and simply inaccurate to imply otherwise. There are no traits that can be assigned squarely to one gender.

There are even physical characteristics, such as breasts/flat chests, muscles, having a penis/vagina, that are not gender specific (trans people exist, intersex people exist, the sex binary is a load of bullshit, more at 7).

kingofeli said:

As a transgender person, I'm here to feverishly assert that there is literally no such thing as a male or female characteristic. Implying that there is is incredibly insensitive and harmful towards people who do not fit in the narrow boxes assigned to different genders, such as myself.

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I don't understand. Can you explain a bit?

As a woman who is six feet tall (like Sigourney Weaver is!), likes coding, science, building equipment with my hands, and who has no problem identifying as female, the people who think women can't just be slotted into the role a man plays can kiss my non-skirt-wearing ass. Those notions always were bullshit.

I think the real issue is the people spouting this crap are so used to women only being portrayed in fiction as sexually desirable creatures that they suffer a cognitive disconnect when the woman is instead portrayed as just a plain ol' human being, not somebody you're supposed to lust after.

Imagine a burly 50-year-old woman in an easy-to-maintain haircut and arms like ham-hocks -- one of those tough old biddies who raised her kids with a firm hand and was never afraid to get into a screaming match with the butcher. Now slot her into that gun-slinging role -- that works just fine, doesn't it? No disconnect between mean-ass granny and bad-ass freedom-fighter, because no one is confused about the fact she was never intended to be titillating. Put Megan Fox in the role, however, and suddenly a whole bunch of people are.

They're not complaining about the fact a woman wouldn't act that way. They're complaining about the fact that their dream woman wouldn't act that way.

Viridian said:

I don't understand. Can you explain a bit?

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Characteristics that can be separated into "male" or "female" don't exist. Any characteristic can be adopted by any person, regardless of gender.

Parametric said:

That scene is entertainingly subversive. Our protagonist, confronted by young, beautiful, half-naked, dripping wet women, immediately zeroes in on... the water. Once he has them at gunpoint, he just grabs the water and drinks it.

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I know this is still a derail but I LOVED THAT SCENE SO MUCH.

Another thing I liked: during the ensuing fight scene, the wives did their damndest to help Furiosa beat up Max. Like, these women have no combat skills. They are beautiful women wearing flimsy clothing. Most writers/directors probably would have written them as helpless victims who stand around gasping.

But nope. No combat skills? Doesn't matter. Active characters are active.

Favorite movie. Best movie.

Best movie. Agree. Also the badass combat grannies rocked.

kingofeli said:

Characteristics that can be separated into "male" or "female" don't exist. Any characteristic can be adopted by any person, regardless of gender.

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Erm, that's not what I meant. I understand that you believe there are no inherent male or female traits. I just don't understand how you being transgender relates to that, or why you believe that such a statement hurts transgender people.

I mean, doesn't transgenderism rely on the idea that men and women have different minds? After all, if men and women are not inherently different, then how can a person have a female mind but a male body, or vice versa?

How can you be transgender, yet believe there are no male or female traits?

I don't understand. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

ETA: I'm honestly asking.

Viridian said:

Erm, that's not what I meant. I understand that you believe there are no inherent male or female traits. I just don't understand how you being transgender relates to that, or why you believe that such a statement hurts transgender people.

I mean, doesn't transgenderism rely on the idea that men and women have different minds? After all, if men and women are not inherently different, then how can a person have a female mind but a male body, or vice versa?

How can you be transgender, yet believe there are no male or female traits?

I don't understand. I do my absolute best to be aware of the issues, so I'm not asking from a position of ignorance. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

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The statement hurts transgender people because people assume that all we are are stereotypes, and that isn't true. Just as there are feminine cis men, there are feminine trans men, so on and so forth. The very existence of non-binary people should prove that there is no such thing as male/female traits.

Being transgender relies on you not identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. That's it. The whole "male/female mind" thing has been debunked, by the way; a new study just came out that totally smashes that into the ground. There's no real difference between the brains of men and women, and if such a thing were true, non-binary people wouldn't exist.

A body's gender relies on that which it is attached to; for example, my body is male, regardless of the genitals it possesses, because I am male.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

kingofeli said:

Being transgender relies on you not identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. That's it. The whole "male/female mind" thing has been debunked, by the way; a new study just came out that totally smashes that into the ground.

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Uhkay. This is the part I don't understand, then.

When I say "mind," I am not referring to your brain. I mean who you are inside. Your consciousness, your soul, your thoughts, your feelings. Your inner self. Your personality traits.

If there is no difference between the "inner self" of a woman and the "inner self" of a man, then how can they be different? By what logic is one a man and one a woman?

Viridian said:

Thanks for taking the time to explain.


Uhkay. This is the part I don't understand, then.

When I say "mind," I am not referring to your brain. I mean who you are inside. Your consciousness, your soul, your thoughts, your feelings. Your inner self. Your personality traits.

If there is no difference between the "inner self" of a woman and the "inner self" of a man, then how can they be different? By what logic is one a man and one a woman?

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Ooooh, I see what you're getting at. Yeah the inner selves are definitely different! I thought you meant like, brain structure lmao.

Can I ask another question? How can an "inner self" be gendered? What makes an inner-self gendered?

kingofeli said:

Ooooh, I see what you're getting at. Yeah the inner selves are definitely different! I thought you meant like, brain structure lmao.

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I'm confused about this, too.

I thought the concept of most trans were all about the feminine vs masculine aspects? Otherwise, wouldn't their inner selves be the same, if one rejects the societal norms/gender roles?

Hapax Legomenon said:

Can I ask another question? How can an "inner self" be gendered? What makes an inner-self gendered?

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The gender of your inner self depends on what you feel it to be. It's a difficult concept to explain to those who aren't transgender. Like, I know in my heart that I'm a boy. I just know. That's who I am inside.

bunny-gypsy said:

I'm confused about this, too.

I thought the concept of most trans were all about the feminine vs masculine aspects? Otherwise, wouldn't their inner selves be the same, if one rejects the societal norms/gender roles?

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Nope, nope, and no. The definition of transgender is "someone who doesn't identify as the gender they were assigned at birth." That's it. Nothing to do with masculinity vs femininity, because if it was, every masculine woman would be a trans man and every feminine man would be a trans woman, but that isn't true.

kingofeli said:

The gender of your inner self depends on what you feel it to be. It's a difficult concept to explain to those who aren't transgender. Like, I know in my heart that I'm a boy. I just know. That's who I am inside.

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How would I know if I'm transgender or not?

Hapax Legomenon said:

How would I know if I'm transgender or not?

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Through a lot of self-insight, and possibly meditation. If you don't identify as the gender the doctor called you when you came out, you're trans.

kingofeli said:

Through a lot of self-insight, and possibly meditation. If you don't identify as the gender the doctor called you when you came out, you're trans.

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Okay. I guess the only thing I know that I am in my heart is sad, and as far as I am aware, 'sad' is not a gender.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Can I ask another question? How can an "inner self" be gendered? What makes an inner-self gendered?

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Hapax Legomenon said:

How would I know if I'm transgender or not?

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Hapax Legomenon said:

Okay. I guess the only thing I know that I am in my heart is sad, and as far as I am aware, 'sad' is not a gender.

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^All of this.

There is nothing inside me that says I am a woman. Frankly, if I were born with a male body, I would be fine with that.

'Tis puzzling.

Viridian said:

^All of this.

There is nothing inside me that says I am a woman. Frankly, if I were born with a male body, I would be fine with that.

'Tis puzzling.

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If there's nothing in you that says you're a woman, are you a woman?

I really don't think there are any inherent differences between men and women. There are just cultural gender roles. Because there are gender roles and norms, sometimes it might not work to treat male and female characters exactly the same. The gender someone is raised as affects how they interact with the world. If you're writing a futuristic story, there's no reason why you have to copy 21st century gender roles. But if you're writing a contemporary or historical story, it's worth taking gender roles into consideration sometimes.

Viridian said:

Erm, that's not what I meant. I understand that you believe there are no inherent male or female traits. I just don't understand how you being transgender relates to that, or why you believe that such a statement hurts transgender people.

I mean, doesn't transgenderism rely on the idea that men and women have different minds? After all, if men and women are not inherently different, then how can a person have a female mind but a male body, or vice versa?

How can you be transgender, yet believe there are no male or female traits?

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It's a common misconception that being trans is based on traits, and this harms trans people because it makes people take gender dysphoria less seriously. For example, I've had people ask me why I can't just be happy as a "masculine woman," because they assume that because I identify as genderqueer, that must just be a fancy way of saying I'm butch and not comfortable with female gender roles. No, it means that sometimes I have intense periods of dysphoria where in my mind's eye, I see myself as having a male or androgynous body and expect others to see me the same way. Being trans is much more complex and less superficial than just wanting to dress a certain way or do "boy" things or "girl" things. There are trans women who are total tomboys and trans men who like to wear dresses and makeup. Being trans has more to do with how you see yourself in relation to how others see you. If a cisgender man can wear makeup and still conceive of himself as male then a transgender man can do the same. But trans people are often held to a stricter standard than cisgender people, and are expected to adhere to gender roles more rigidly than cisgender people do.

Hapax Legomenon said:

If there's nothing in you that says you're a woman, are you a woman?

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This is a concept that confused me for a while when I was a teenager. For the first time I had a close friend who was transgender, so I was thinking about gender in new ways. I didn't feel any special attachment to my gender or biological sex, so for a while I was like, huh, I must not have a gender! But I think gender is one of those things that feels invisible and unremarkable to you unless you've been assigned the wrong one. I've since come to accept that I am in fact female, and I'm cis precisely because I don't feel any conflict with the gender I was assigned at birth.

Viridian said:

There is nothing inside me that says I am a woman. Frankly, if I were born with a male body, I would be fine with that.

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In fairness, you can't know this for sure, can you?

kingofeli said:

The whole "male/female mind" thing has been debunked, by the way; a new study just came out that totally smashes that into the ground.

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Tell me more, please. I'm always looking for new ammo in this ongoing argument I have with my mother, who insists men and women are inherently different.

If it's just cultural gender roles and biology plays no part, then what would y'all say about the behavioral differences between males and females of other animal species, especially mammals? Has anyone lived on a farm or otherwise raised animals in a group setting or anything like that?

Just curious. Of course humans are far more complicated, but still, wondering what people think of that.

Fruitbat said:

If it's just cultural gender roles and biology plays no part, then what would y'all say about the differences in the behaviors of male and females of other animal species, especially mammals? Has anyone lived on a farm or raised any kind of animal or anything like that?

Just curious.

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The amount of difference between sexes varies widely by species. I'm no expert on this topic but I can say that much.

lenore_x said:

The amount of difference between sexes varies widely by species. I'm no expert on this topic but I can say that much.

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How so? Are you saying there are any other mammal species where the sex doesn't make any significant difference in behavior, aside from the obvious one of gestation? If so, which one/s? Not trying to be confrontational, just curious.

Fruitbat said:

If it's just cultural gender roles and biology plays no part, then what would y'all say about the behavioral differences between males and females of other animal species, especially mammals? Has anyone lived on a farm or otherwise raised animals in a group setting or anything like that?

Just curious. Of course humans are far more complicated, but still, wondering what people think of that.

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You do not think that animals have "culture"?

Hapax Legomenon said:

You do not think that animals have "culture"?

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I don't know if what they do could ever be called that or not. If the male/female behavior differences are the same the world over and throughout time, then I'd think that's biology, not "culture."