Length of book problem

Allisonn said:

I've written a book based on interviews with over 50 people. Even when I divide it
into two books, the longer book is 118K words.

Is it my responsibility to cut it down before I send out queries to agents?

Thanks!

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My initial reaction is: Who else's responsibility would it be?

I don't know the topic, and it depends on a number of things, but if you've got two volumes (I'm guessing because it's nonfic the first can't stand alone, but I dunno), at 200,000 words, in general, that'd probably be an issue.

Yes, it's your responsibility to have your book as publishable as possible. Competition is fierce and it's doubtful an agent will bother with anything that isn't polished. However, nonfiction books are usually sold on the basis of a proposal, not the entire manuscript. You may want to research "book proposal," prepare that, and send it, regardless of if the manuscript is finished or not.

Also, how long a book is would not be the issue for me. The issue would be the value of what is actually said. If you are repeating each interview word for word for no specific, good reason, that may just bore your readers. Is it worth that many words or does it have a lot of filler that weakens the book/s? Also, has this been critiqued or beta read by anyone else?

If any or all of the above applies, it may not be ready to be sent out. Many, many books are doomed because they're sent out too soon. You may want to slow down and make sure you'll be sending in something that lets them know you're a serious contender. Good luck.

Allisonn said:

Thank you cornflake and Fruitbat! In the acknowledgements of a competing book I saw, the author credits her editor and editor's assistant for substantially helping to shape the book. So I thought I might get a little help from my (future) publisher.
Both books can stand alone.

I'm using a round-table discussion format (not sure what the correct term for that is), which means I've excerpted relevant comments for each topic from the original Q&A's. The original transcripts were almost 1500 pages, single spaced.

Can you suggest the best way to find a beta reader?

Thanks so much!

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There are a few things going on here.

First, that acknowledgement for helping to shape the book might have meant the person had a book in really good shape, but the editor(s) suggested some change(s) that the author hadn't considered. It also may mean that the person got the deal from a proposal, as fruitbat mentioned, and the editor(s) suggested ways to proceed from the proposal that really helped.

Second, be wary of the illusion that you've only got relevant stuff and no extraneous stuff because you cut from 1500 pages to so much less.

Finally, there's a beta reader forum here, where you can look for people, though people with more posts tend to be able to find more, more easily. You can also post excerpts in the nonfic SYW section once you've got 50 posts.

Allisonn said:

Thank you cornflake and Fruitbat! In the acknowledgements of a competing book I saw, the author credits her editor and editor's assistant for substantially helping to shape the book. So I thought I might get a little help from my (future) publisher.
Both books can stand alone.

!

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Editors help tremendously, and they often do help cut a book to length. This usually means, however, that they may cut in a very brutal fashion when they really want a book, and the writer doesn't do the job. It does not mean you can submit a book that's two or three times as long as it should be, it means that if you're ten or twenty thousand words too long, and the editor loves the books, he may well cut that extra length for you.

But it's never a good idea to go in thinking this will happen. You should have one book, not two, and it should be as well-written, and as close to perfect length as possible. It should contain the best interviews, and they should be as complete as possible. Cutting an interview for length is tricky, and gets editors and writers in tremendous trouble, when they do it poorly. Most do it poorly. The right way to cut an interview is by cutting an area that's atlk about completely. The wrong way to cut an interview is by snipping away at an specific area in order to make it fit in the allotted space. Writers, and editors, who do this seldom last long.

At any rate, you need one book to wrap a proposal around. There's always some length leeway, but not a lot, so you need to make everything fit within the guidelines a given publisher has. Guidelines are there for a reason, and ignoring them will get you nowhere. You're the writers, and it's your responsibility to cut everything to the point where an editor has the time to help you.

Beta readers? Bah, humbug. If beta readers helped at all, slush would stink worse than a dead fish on a hot summer day. Ninety-none percent of beta readers know less than the writer they're supposedly helping. The one percent of beta readers who could actually help are probably too busy writing to spend time on someone else's manuscript.

And if you actually need a beta reader, then even a great beta reader probably can't help you.

The best beta reader out there, a thousand times over, is the editor at the publishing house you want to sell to.

Fruitbat said:

The issue would be the value of what is actually said. If you are repeating each interview word for word for no specific, good reason, that may just bore your readers. Is it worth that many words or does it have a lot of filler that weakens the book/s?

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Agreeing, more of less, with this.
Not knowing the subject of your book(s), not knowing if you're repeating each and every interview word for word or cutting out snippets, do you really need all 50 interviews to make whatever point you're making?
By 'round-table discussion format', I'm guessing that you mean a question is raised, then you use relevant comments from the interviews to demonstrate a range of answers? I like oral histories, and multiple viewpoints, but 50 seems way too many. Are there really 50 sides to these questions? How many are more-or-less rehashes of some previous person's responses? Especially as, snippet here and snippet there, it's hard to get a feel for the various people answering, they become just a string of unrelated one-liners. (Because if you have more than a couple of questions, times 50, there's really no room for in-depth answers.)
Good luck.

I agree 100% with Jamesaritchie!

Get an editor not a beta reader. He/she can help you objectively cut your manuscript down to size. First, of course, you have to make it "perfect" and do all the cutting and shaping you can. I worked with three editors on my book and they each had very valuable suggestions about cutting and reshaping/re-shifting the content and the emphasis.

What also helped me was to take a break from the project. Set it aside for a month and then come back with fresh eyes and you'll probably see a LOT that you can cut. Also, as already mentioned, you sell NF by proposal, so you really only need three chapters written; the rest is all outlined.

Good luck!

Allisonn said:

Thank you cornflake and Fruitbat! In the acknowledgements of a competing book I saw, the author credits her editor and editor's assistant for substantially helping to shape the book. So I thought I might get a little help from my (future) publisher.
Both books can stand alone.

I'm using a round-table discussion format (not sure what the correct term for that is), which means I've excerpted relevant comments for each topic from the original Q&A's. The original transcripts were almost 1500 pages, single spaced.

Can you suggest the best way to find a beta reader?

Thanks so much!

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused. Did you actually write a book or is everything you have just questions and answers? It sounds like you have a lot of material, and now you have to decide how best to use it. You will need to find books that take a similar approach to what you are trying to do for your proposal.

And editors can and do help shape books. When I started talking to editors and agents, my original concept changed quite a bit. I wasn't opposed to doing what they wanted. They know what sells, and their ideas for my project were all good ones. Sadly, my book didn't happen, but I did get pretty far in the process.

Work on your proposal. It will really make you think a lot about your book and what you are trying to do. FYI -- My proposal was around 50 pages. You really have to put a lot into a proposal. Good luck with everything.

Don't pay for an editor without very careful thought. If you find a publisher who wants your book they'll edit it anyway; and you're far better off working out how to turn this collection of interviews into a book on your own, so that you develop skills you can use in future books.

If I were you I'd look at how wide-ranging the interviews are, and see if you can split this down to two or three more specialist books. This assumes, of course, that the word-count you've given us is for a book which is already tight and clean. If it's verbatim transcriptions of long interviews, I suspect you're going to have to cut a lot and your book will be significantly shorter than it is now.

Are these interviews with famous pop-culture/entertainment people? Or interviews about pop-culture/entertainment with people who aren't well-known at all? Or a mix? It would help to know what the focus is.

Also, is this material unknown enough, or the topics unique enough, to warrant such a thing? I have no idea what your book deals with, obviously, but the endless interviews already out there make me wonder.

I'm not sure that it's so important that you have the exact right amount of material. You can present the best of what you have and then discuss possibilities for the rest of the material (make the interviews shorter to include more or just include the very best interviews). I've just submitted a proposal to my publisher for a series but included that x, y, and z (other variations on the proposed series) are possibilities.

I think that agents and editors want to know that you are not so married to material, you'll be blind to what is a detriment. On the other hand, you have to stand by material that is truly who you are and what represents your voice. I tend to "kitchen sink" it. I put in every thought I've ever had and traditionally have had issues with editing. It's important to be open to editing suggestions and to let an agent and a publisher know you are.

So, taking a break at this point is a great idea.

My history with this is that I sent out queries to agents and changed them as I received feedback from agents. I sent full proposals to some who asked and then edited it down based on some of their suggestions (not all), and sent it out to another batch, received multiple offers of representation and selected one and went to work on the changes my new agent wanted.

When it was "just right," (about six months...there was a lot of rewriting of sample chapters), she shopped it to publishers and we received offers in a few weeks. My acquiring editor had suggestions to get rid of some of the material before shopping it to the editorial board and adding another sample chapter. After the book was accepted, there was more paring done. I pushed back a little more on my second book but, ultimately, my publisher won most of the arguments.

Again, I think that flexibility is important and presenting that, to agents and editors, is important.