How do you critique something just bad?

theWallflower

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I ran across this in Critters today. What do you say when critiquing a work that's just overall bad. I can tell the author went to minimum effort. It looked like it was written by a ten year old or someone whose first language isn't English (or both). Not Eye of Argon bad, but clearly wouldn't make it past stage 4 of the Slushkiller criteria. There's not an ounce of effort or originality in the setting, characters, plot, or prose. But Critters punishes people who aren't "diplomatic". So what are you supposed to say when they want to know what's wrong and the answer is "everything">
 

Maryn

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Saying "Everything!" in response to the author asking what's wrong is useless. It won't help them improve. Specifics will.

When I get a manuscript that bad--not often--I try hard, first and foremost, to find what's good about it. There's always something, even if it took searching to ferret it out. Is a setting described well? Are the character names good? Is the pacing right? Are there places where you reacted as the author hoped, with a smile or an attaboy for the character? Scenes where the dialogue really worked for you? I promise you that even in the shoddiest, most unprofessional manuscript, there are things you can praise.

Then I narrow down what's wrong into things I find most severe and things I find most correctable. I make myself use as much tact as I can find within myself as I point out the general nature of the errors (This plot seems overly familiar, perhaps derivative of TITLE rather than This rips off TITLE), and if I can, I offer suggestions which would make that aspect better, using broad strokes. (Is there a way you can twist the predictable plot so it looks like the bad guy is going to get away with it--or maybe allow him to do just that?) Then on to the correctable goofs. I back up broad categories (I found the mistakes in dialog punctuation really distracting or The failure to format paragraphs made this a difficult read for me.) with specific examples from the ms.

At the end of my written critique, I repeat some of the praise and reiterate what needs improvement, and I thank them for trusting me with their ms.

Maryn, grizzled veteran of a bazillion critiques
 
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Ravioli

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Perhaps something along the lines of:

"I think your idea for a story has potential and is definitely worth a thorough editing job as you have some grammar/spelling/WHATEVER-this-is-an-example issues. You may also want to give the story a new spin as similar ones have been written before. You have the unique opportunity to give something old, a brilliant makeover. If you're ever going to make such revisions, I'd be looking forward to reading the result :)"
 

theWallflower

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I'm not that worried about sounding tactical or polite (I can fluff and buff on my own), I'm more wondering how to say something concrete but not to lead the person or spend all day on the material.
 

Tazlima

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If you can tell the author went to a minimum of effort creating the work, I would respond with a minimum of effort put into the critique. If they don't care about the end result, why should you?

Now if the author genuinely tried his/her best and ended up with a poor result, that's an entirely different story.

In either case, however, I'd respond by focusing on the most egregious errors. If the writer comes back with a revision that indicates they're able to recognize and fix those problems, then you could proceed to the next layer of problems.

As far as how to say something concrete without doing the work for them, I'd:
1) Provide a general explanation of the issue
2) Point out two or three places where the issue occurs, so they're able to recognize what it looks like.
3) Correct ONE of those places as an example of how to deal with the problem.
4) Depending on the circumstances, I might make myself available to answer follow-up questions in case they get stuck.

That will give them the ability to find and fix the problem, but also make it clear they'll have to do the actual legwork themselves.
 

Denevius

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On most, if not all, really, critiquing websites I belong to, critiquing a story is optional. So if you think it's really bad, pass it up. Someone else may be able to offer a better response. Think of it this way. Haven't you ever seen a traditionally published book on a store shelf or library shelf in which the writing seemed awful? I have, but obviously someone thought it was worthwhile, or else they wouldn't have published it.

Not everything written is for you to read.
 

SallyB

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I try to let them know about the potential in their work, (There is always some sort of potential, even if it's just an interesting premise.) I usually try to start with that, and let them know how I felt about the story. (In polite terms, 'Your story isn't one I'd normally read on my own, because *Insert main reason for disliking the story.*) From there try to go back and forth with some occasional praise (If you actually have some.) But mainly let them know if the writing turned you off, or if you feel the story could have been represented better.

But always try to point out specific problem area's, so that the next thing they write will be better. It doesn't have to be everything, but even a little bit helps.
 

greendragon

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My critique rules for 'challenging' work:

First: Say something nice. "Great line here." "I like this character. "

Second: Concentrate on the big stuff first. "I think your plot needs tightening. It helps me to map out the plot and subplots to visualize the progress." "This sounds a lot like Guardians of the Galaxy, how about adding a twist to differentiate?" "The dialogue sounds a bit stilted, maybe throw in some idiom or slang to loosen it up."

"I'd love to see this again once you've addressed the above, and then I can concentrate more on the refinements."
 

Earthling

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But Critters punishes people who aren't "diplomatic".

I'm not sure how they define diplomatic, but I wouldn't be a member of a site that required me to give thoughtful critique to a piece the author him/herself had put no thought into. If it were optional, I would opt not to give that author any of my time.
 

MaeZe

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In my critique group, our wise master tailors his comments to the skill level the writer is on without telling them that's what he's doing. In other words he doesn't insult the writer saying this is bad, he just directs his comments to beginner's level.

Pick one or two things, you don't have to fix everything at once.

He will though, tell someone he doesn't want to see completely unedited stuff and not to bring it. He expects basic grammar, no walls of text or writing like you are texting your friend.
 
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Woollybear

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I was on critters for a while, and it has some good things going for it. It's huge. The requirement to write a certain bare minimum of constructive feedback on a piece, for credits, was worthwhile. And one of the best writers in my IRL group is active there--so I think that speaks well for the site.

OP, I don't recall them assigning critiques. I thought you could pick? The Captain was also responsive to me through email, so you could try emailing him.

I left critters.org when I got my first batch of critiques *back* (after earning extra credits through critiquing others). My story was bad, but most of the critiques were helpful anyway. Except one, from a guy who insulted me top to bottom and then promoted his website as a way that I might learn to write.

That's the reason for the rules on the site. Because of that one guy, and the amazingly bad taste his critique left in my mouth, I left immediately. Think about it this way-- Here on AW, a harsh critique is public. Everyone sees it. On the other hand, a harsh (and bad) critique on critters isn't public, and I think the occasional bad egg really misbehaves as a result.

So-

1. Don't pick that story. If you have to, then -

2. You can easily say positive things like:

...a. It's clear you worked hard on this. (even if you don't believe that, trust me, they did.)
...b. Thank you for putting your work out for critique--It takes courage.
...c. You have a unique perspective and that's valuable.

3. For the negative things--be kind but generic. Examples:

...a. The strongest part for me was the characters, the weakest part was the action. I'd like to see more active verbs. You can find examples at (website.)
...b. I'm curious about x. I'd like to see more time spent on that.
...c. One of the things I struggle with is comma usage. It seems like we have this in common. The website (x) has been helpful. Take a look.

And you're done and you move on with your life.
 
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veinglory

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I pick the first thing they would need to change to make the work more readable--typically using correct spelling and punctuation, or paragraphing.
 

neandermagnon

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The "sandwich" technique - sandwiching criticism between positive things - not only does it make your criticism come across a lot more positive and diplomatic, research (in the workplace, schools etc) shows that it increases the chances of the criticism being taken on board and acted upon rather than being rejected or ignored. Lots of the advice given so far is variations on the sandwich technique.

IMO the more central problem is that you need to find something positive to say about it to start with. There is always something that they've done right. Find it and use that to sandwich the criticism.

I agree about focusing on the more basic and most fixable issues. There is no benefit in picking up on every single error or problem at this stage. It's utterly demoralising. Think what is going to be most useful to this person at this point in time and stick to that. No-one can go from total beginner to literary genius in a single step. Criticism needs to help raise the person up to the next step. As suggested above comments like "after you've edited this post it again for critique so you can work on refining it further" can help make it clear that you haven't picked up on everything. It's also a positive way to put it.

Regarding effort, you don't know how much effort this person's put in. It might look like they just slapped something together in five minutes, but you don't know that. You say it's written like English isn't their first language - maybe English isn't their first language. Maybe they're dyslexic. Maybe they were forced to drop out of school too young. Or maybe they just always struggled with school and learning. You don't know so don't assume a lack of effort. Where there's errors in basic grammar etc, recommend a good grammar book. You can phrase it like Patty's comment about commas.

Are you able to ask questions, like "Hi there, is this your first draft? Just need to know so I can give you the best feedback, thanks :)" before you submit your critique? If they get back to you and say it's their first draft, then you can advise them that they'll get a lot more out of the critique if they revise and edit it thoroughly first, otherwise all the critique is going to focus on stuff they already knew and could've fixed themselves, and they'll get less out of it. If they come back and say they've already revised/edited it, then get your very best diplomacy and helpful-to-beginners comments ready. And remember that you don't know their situation or educational background.
 

SciSarahTops

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Patty the crits on critters are public, you can access them one week later in the archives. I used to read through them a lot.

I think maybe the really awful entries get very few crits and maybe get boosted by the captain I don't remember. I put my first ever a first draft on there and got candid - but very helpful feedback. And those critters really did want to help. If I had those files I would share them now.

I got awful feedback from a different site once. Very insulting. I was kind of furious but I guess now everything I get is better than that!

I admit to just passing on something I was sent via a facebook group a few months back. I read it and my heart sank. I shut shut the file and ignored it. It was hard tomknow where to start and the story wasn't my thing at all. I'm sticking to this place from then on for allmy beta/critting needs.
 

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Sounds like a potentially useful resource, but, for info, I have just had a quick look and they won't accept members from Europe

They cite GDPR privacy rules as a reason which would only be a problem if they were using your private data for reasons that you don't accept, but even if it's an over-reaction, it's no good to us Euros.
 

SciSarahTops

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Sounds like a potentially useful resource, but, for info, I have just had a quick look and they won't accept members from Europe

They cite GDPR privacy rules as a reason which would only be a problem if they were using your private data for reasons that you don't accept, but even if it's an over-reaction, it's no good to us Euros.

Oh. I think that must be new. I am a European... (at least until article 40...)
 

S. Eli

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If you hate it so much don't critique it. But, also, a few years back I got my first beta reader for the second novel I ever finished. I knew it was bad, but now I know how bad it was (god it was atrocious) and I'll honestly never forget the person who's advice was "Good Idea but scrap this and move on".

"What you have here, I feel isn't working. You should scrap this and try another way to get your point across."

I mean, I knew I was still growing, and maybe this person you're critiquing does not, but I think that comment was fine when I received it.
 

Bacchus

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Oh. I think that must be new. I am a European... (at least until article 40...)

The GDPR regulations only came into force about a month ago. It is supposed to protect the private data of "any European citizen" but I have no idea how that could be enforced with a US or other company.

It is a good idea but a bit unwieldy. I chair our residents' association and have to get everyone's permission to keep their private details (email addresses) on my "systems" - a mail-merge document.
 

rainbowsheeps

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Sounds like a potentially useful resource, but, for info, I have just had a quick look and they won't accept members from Europe

They cite GDPR privacy rules as a reason which would only be a problem if they were using your private data for reasons that you don't accept, but even if it's an over-reaction, it's no good to us Euros.

I joined the site about two weeks ago myself. My impression of the site is that it uses an extremely old and an outdated system, and the creator seems like a nice guy who means well, but is perhaps overly cautious about things. That might explain why he cites the rules as reason for not accepting European members.

Case in point, there are pages on that site instructing authors how to critique other's work in a diplomatic fashion. This is a good idea. It's unfortunate that sometimes writers giving feedback are, you know, really nonconstructive, or even outright toxic, unhelpful, etc., and there should be rules to avoid that. That said, I think the advice sometimes gets a bit "extra" in terms of nicing over otherwise constructive feedback. In truth, I think a happy medium needs to be found. Writers who can't take criticism may want to try a different line of work, or avoid publishing - because even very talented, successful writers, are going to get poor reviews on Amazon or wherever. And, before they get that success, I expect most - if not all - authors had to get some harsh feedback along with the encouragement and support from their tutors and peers so that they could learn from their mistakes and improve. In other words, at some point, writers need to learn to ride without training wheels.

Also, there are other resources that allow for exchanging of work for feedback. Some places on reddit, like the DestructiveReaders subreddit, allows authors to critique other's work and earn points for the word count of the pieces they've given "effortful" critiques on. When you've critiqued pieces whose word counts equal or exceed the word count of the work you want critiqued by others, they let you post your own. It's a similar system as Critters, but can be more instantaneous, and more controlled in terms of word count (not just feedback effort).
 

ColoradoGuy

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If you hate it so much don't critique it. But, also, a few years back I got my first beta reader for the second novel I ever finished. I knew it was bad, but now I know how bad it was (god it was atrocious) and I'll honestly never forget the person who's advice was "Good Idea but scrap this and move on".

"What you have here, I feel isn't working. You should scrap this and try another way to get your point across."

I mean, I knew I was still growing, and maybe this person you're critiquing does not, but I think that comment was fine when I received it.

That's brave on both your parts.