Another Religious Rights Issue

Lillith1991 · Oct 30, 2015

King Neptune said:
That isn't an argument for assimilation into the majority, so it's fine that it be crappy in the role. Cultures are fluid. What is tabu one year may become the thing to do a few years later. If you want to use the flexibility of cultures as reasons to wipe out cultures, then please leave me out of it. And I don't want anything to do with changing cultures buy force either.

I call bullshit. Unless preventing someone from practicing their faith as is in the case of ethnoreligious minorities‚ by outlawing religious materials doesn't count as forcing a culture to change? I certainly do count it. They're not making the change because the cerimony is important and the material doesn't exist anymore, they were forced into the change by people outside the community who see their practices in a negative light.

Lillith1991 · Oct 30, 2015

rugcat said:
What about a culture where female genital mutilation is seen as the norm and a positive good, in fact a duty? Is allowing cultural traditions to flourish always the right thing to do?

Of course not, but what you do is educate on the harmful nature of the tradition. You get people who have been harmed of all ages to step forward, and you hope the culture sees the harm and starts condeming the behavior as immoral. You don't come in an say that your culture is superior because you don't practice FGM or something else Western culture considers barbaric. This is already happening in many nations where the tradition is practiced, with several having outlawed already and more considering making it illegal.

Amadan · Oct 30, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Seems pretty darned simple to me. The challenging bit is deciding which groups should have protected class status extended to them.

Yeah, and what some of us in this thread are saying is that religions should not have protected class status.

(Actually, I am opposed to any group having "protected class" status, but that is not the same as saying we should not recognize and try to counteract discrimination.)

Rhoda Nightingale · Oct 30, 2015

Question: This whole kerfuffle arose because an Amish man wants/needs a gun for farming purposes, right? And the dealer doesn't want to sell him one because he doesn't have a photo ID, because having one's picture taken is against the Amish religion, right? I feel like I'm missing something here. Such as where the Amish acquired their guns and other farming equipment, which they've presumably been handling for years, before this happened. Is this the first guy who's ever had to go to a dealer and run into this problem? And if not, what happened last time?

Lillith1991 · Oct 30, 2015

Amadan said:
Yeah, and what some of us in this thread are saying is that religions should not have protected class status.

(Actually, I am opposed to any group having "protected class" status, but that is not the same as saying we should not recognize and try to counteract discrimination.)

And when religion and culture are the same, what then? Because in order to change their protected class status you would need to change the 1st admendment, the thing which is their basis for being protected classes in the first place. Culture and religion is hardly as clear cut as some of you believe it is.

Hapax Legomenon · Oct 30, 2015

Rhoda Nightingale said:
Question: This whole kerfuffle arose because an Amish man wants/needs a gun for farming purposes, right? And the dealer doesn't want to sell him one because he doesn't have a photo ID, because having one's picture taken is against the Amish religion, right? I feel like I'm missing something here. Such as where the Amish acquired their guns and other farming equipment, which they've presumably been handling for years, before this happened. Is this the first guy who's ever had to go to a dealer and run into this problem? And if not, what happened last time?

In the United States, antique firearms (those manufactured before 1899) are not subject to regulation. Considering this is an Amish community, they may have been using those.

King Neptune · Oct 30, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Seems pretty darned simple to me. The challenging bit is deciding which groups should have protected class status extended to them.

That's the easy part. [FONT=&quot]Amendment XIV
Section 1.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All persons[/FONT][FONT=&quot] born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.[/FONT]

Everyone is in a protected group.

King Neptune · Oct 30, 2015

Lillith1991 said:
I call bullshit. Unless preventing someone from practicing their faith as is in the case of ethnoreligious minorities‚ by outlawing religious materials doesn't count as forcing a culture to change? I certainly do count it. They're not making the change because the cerimony is important and the material doesn't exist anymore, they were forced into the change by people outside the community who see their practices in a negative light.

Did ou quote my post in e3rror? This has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Lillith1991 · Oct 30, 2015

King Neptune said:
Did ou quote my post in e3rror? This has nothing to do with what I wrote.

It's a response to the whole "I don't want anything to do with changing cultures by force." If you think someone shouldn't have access to things their culture deems of religious signifigance because others aren't given the same "exception," then that's exactly what you're advocating. They are by definition being changed by force, they didn't cholse to make the change of their own free will.

Amadan · Oct 30, 2015

Lillith1991 said:
And when religion and culture are the same, what then?

Same answer.

King Neptune · Oct 30, 2015

Lillith1991 said:
It's a response to the whole "I don't want anything to do with changing cultures by force." If you think someone shouldn't have access to things their culture deems of religious signifigance because others aren't given the same "exception," then that's exactly what you're advocating. They are by definition being changed by force, they didn't cholse to make the change of their own free will.

I have no control over how you misinterpret what I write. You might want to read things more carefully, rather than imposing your own meanings.

Lillith1991 · Oct 30, 2015

King Neptune said:
I have no control over how you misinterpret what I write. You might want to read things more carefully, rather than imposing your own meanings.

I'm not imposing anything‚ nor am I the first person to take issue with what you've said in this thread. Change the words if one of rhe possible interpretations of what you said bothers you.

rohstod · Oct 30, 2015

King Neptune said:
That's the easy part. Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Everyone is in a protected group.

I think roxx might be referring to suspect and quasi suspect classifications. Laws impacting suspect classifications or quasi suspect classifications receive heightened scrutiny in equal protections analysis--intermediate scrutiny (quasi suspect) and strict scrutiny (suspect).

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