Critiquing QUILTBAG and PoC characters

kuwisdelu · Oct 27, 2015

So we critiqued the story with the black trans girl character today.

The author is actually pretty great; though other members of the class worried me at times.

At one point, the author mentioned wanting the girl to "save" her white cisgender male narrator (as in magic pixie dream black trans girl "save"), and in my head, I started thinking "no, no, no."

The story ends ambiguously after she is attacked, and others started making suggestions about how the narrator could change as a result of her death, and in my head, I started screaming "NO, NO, NO!"

I waited until they were done before strongly advising against her death for the sake of the narrator's development.

Fortunately, the author had no intentions of killing her, so then I merely suggested to please give the character her own resolution in the end.

kuwisdelu · Oct 27, 2015

It also came up in critique that both she and the other student who wrote the gay Edgar A. Poe story had shied away from writing the stories from the "other" POV (both stories were from a straight white male character's POV) because they were worried they shouldn't write from that POV or that the criticism would be harsher.

Which was interesting to me.

For both stories, I had suggested writing from the "other" POV in my comments, because I thought it made more sense for the story.

This semester has been so different from every other I've had in terms of character diversity. I guess this diversity thing is really finally starting to be a thing.

KTC · Oct 28, 2015

This is one thing I will never go outside myself for again. Ever. I find, through personal experience, that it becomes almost violent quickly.

I have an LGBTQ young adult novel with my agent right now...it's out on submission. The LGBT readers who read it were more arrogantly dismissive and hostile about norms and constructs and shit than my non-LGBT readers were. It was, in a word or two--- FUCKING RIDICULOUS. My overall experience with early readers was an eye-opening experience. From here on in, I think I might be done with early readers. Otherwise, I'd have to be done with writing. Yes...this is a slam. I was brought to the edge of chucking a manuscript my agent later got an agent hard-on for. It remains to be seen what will happen with it...but I kept it as it was and ignored the LGBTQ rants and incensed ridiculousness.

akaria · Oct 28, 2015

KTC, I'm sorry your experience was so negative, but criticism is part of the game. Not everyone is going to love your work. It's possible you have a blind spot concerning LGBTQ people and overused tropes people in that community are tired of seeing. Without knowing what specific norms and constructs your readers didn't like, it's hard to say if their concerns were "fucking ridiculous".

If one group of readers not enjoying your work brings you to the edge of quitting writing, this game is not for you.

J.S.F. · Oct 28, 2015

KTC said:
This is one thing I will never go outside myself for again. Ever. I find, through personal experience, that it becomes almost violent quickly.

I have an LGBTQ young adult novel with my agent right now...it's out on submission. The LGBT readers who read it were more arrogantly dismissive and hostile about norms and constructs and shit than my non-LGBT readers were. It was, in a word or two--- FUCKING RIDICULOUS....From here on in, I think I might be done with early readers. Otherwise, I'd have to be done with writing.

---------------------------------

I'm going to have to agree with akaria's post on this. (Post #29) Critiques, raves and pans come with the territory. I'm a straight dude, and having written lesfic as well as a novel involving a transgender character (see avi) I'm well aware of the criticism that comes with putting out those novels. In fact, I've received some really dumbass comments and one stinker of a review and guess what? That's THEIR opinion. I can't change that and will not argue with it no matter how boneheaded I think it is because it is THEIR opinion. This is what happens when you write any novel, regardless of genre or orientation or what have you.

Not having read your novel, there is no way I can say whether you've employed tropes or cliches or stereotypes. In my own case, I found that some in the LGBTQI set were more critical...and I guess they have a right to be because this touches them more deeply than the straight set. Just how it goes. No, I don't like it, but that's how it goes. Thicker skin and all that.

I wish you well with your novel.

slhuang · Oct 28, 2015

akaria said:
It's possible you have a blind spot concerning LGBTQ people and overused tropes people in that community are tired of seeing.

J.S.F. said:
In my own case, I found that some in the LGBTQI set were more critical...and I guess they have a right to be because this touches them more deeply than the straight set. Just how it goes. No, I don't like it, but that's how it goes. Thicker skin and all that.

Er, y'all know that KTC is IN the LGBTQI community, right? (Which he talks about publicly in this forum, in case anyone misinterprets this as outing. I found his post on Pride earlier this year particularly touching.) I gather when he says he will "never go outside [himself]" for this stuff again that instead of asking for QUILTBAG betas he's going to lean on his own lived experience in that area.

Like any group, queer people aren't a monolith, etc etc, and individual queer people can absolutely write things that are terribly hurtful to other individual queer people. But on the flip side, because QUILTBAG people aren't a monolith, I think it's equally dangerous to dismiss or invalidate any individual QUILTBAG writer's lived experience that they want to write about. That's how we get things reduced to singular, narrow narratives, which I think is more dangerous than anything.

KTC, I'm sorry you had such a crappy beta experience. I LOVE having betas and wouldn't be half the writer I am without them, but I'm also excessively picky about my betas, and am very particular about making sure they're on my wavelength and on board with what I'm trying to do (and thus will help me do it better, not try to stomp all over me). From your description, I think I would've dropped your first readers like hot potatoes and sought out others. (Oh, and in re: the above, I hope it doesn't come across that I'm trying to speak for you or anything; I know sometimes it's frustrating to have to come back and explain oneself to people who aren't regulars in this room, but if I've misstepped I'll delete.

)

J.S.F. · Oct 29, 2015

slhuang, I'm aware of KTC's orientation. I have no problem with him being in the LGBTQI community at all. (And I'm going to assume he doesn't anything have against me being in the cisgender male and straight community). I merely pointed out that criticism by anyone over anything comes with the territory of having penned a work for the general public. As I mentioned in my prior post, I found that some reviewers in the LGBTQI set were a tad more critical of my novels. No, not all. Some. This is my case and mine alone. YMMV. I truly wish him well with his latest endeavor, as I do any writer, and I can only hope they say the same for me.

slhuang · Oct 29, 2015

I've been thinking about the "not a monolith" thing and the "not reducing to singular narratives" thing I mentioned in my last post, and why I feel like there's a world of difference between, say, a queer writer setting aside criticisms from other queer people to write the story they want to write versus a straight writer saying, "my gay friend says it's fine!" and thus discarding opinions that disagree. Because I don't think the "gay friend who says it's fine" should have their experiences invalidated, either, or that queer narratives should be reduced only to what one small subset of the queer community declares is valid.

But. But.

Here's what I think it comes down to: I want to be true to myself as a writer. True to my ideals and what I want to put out in the world. And when I don't have a particular lived experience, it's a lot harder to know what that even is. For me, getting crit on this sort of thing isn't about trying to write according to what one or another person things is offensive / not offensive -- instead, to me, it's about understanding those nuances well enough that I can write in a way that's true to the way I want my own work to read.

For instance: Say I write a black character. If I ask my black friend and they say, "yeah, it's fine" -- that's not actually telling me much of anything. It's a check mark. It helps with what I want to know, sure, but it's not what I actually want to know. Because I don't actually want to know if my black friend thinks it's fine; I want to know whether I think it's fine, whether it's saying what I want it to say, whether if, if I had the lived experience of a black person, I would think it a well-done and three-dimensional characterization. No matter how well I know my black friend, that person saying "it's fine" is never wholly going to tell me this.

But say I'm writing from my own experience. If I'm writing a woman, for example. If someone criticizes my female characters as somehow being poor representations, I'm going to feel a lot more confident saying, "No, this is actually what I want to see, as a woman who experiences what women experience, this is a characterization I think is valid and important." I wouldn't always feel invincibly confident, mind you, which is why I read lots of feminist commentary not written by me and why I would probably think about the criticism the person leveled, to get other perspectives, but ultimately, I consider my own lived experience to be a powerful and valid inspiration for my writing.

Thus, though I think if the hypothetical "gay friend who says this is fine" were to write their own story, one that privileged what they wanted to see, that's a wholly different thing from the straight friend saying, "this gay person says my story is fine and therefore it's fine." Because in the latter case, there's no actual understanding of what "fine" means. On the other hand, a straight writer reading and listening a lot and finding an area they want to portray in fiction that many queer people disagree on, and saying, "I think, understanding these issues as well as I can, that this bit here is the truth I want to portray" and doing it knowing some queer people will like that but others won't -- I think that's a different type of setting aside criticism, and falls much better under the "not a monolith" and "no singular narrative" reasoning than "my gay friend says it's fine" does.

...did this make any sense?

KTC · Oct 29, 2015

akaria said:
KTC, I'm sorry your experience was so negative, but criticism is part of the game. Not everyone is going to love your work. It's possible you have a blind spot concerning LGBTQ people and overused tropes people in that community are tired of seeing. Without knowing what specific norms and constructs your readers didn't like, it's hard to say if their concerns were "fucking ridiculous".

If one group of readers not enjoying your work brings you to the edge of quitting writing, this game is not for you.

Whoa now. I love criticism. Don't make it about me. It was definitely about them. It was CHIP ON THE SHOULDER bullshit. It was not coming from the right place. I know what I'm talking about. Don't assume.

KTC · Oct 29, 2015

slhuang said:
Er, y'all know that KTC is IN the LGBTQI community, right? (Which he talks about publicly in this forum, in case anyone misinterprets this as outing. I found his post on Pride earlier this year particularly touching.) I gather when he says he will "never go outside [himself]" for this stuff again that instead of asking for QUILTBAG betas he's going to lean on his own lived experience in that area.

Like any group, queer people aren't a monolith, etc etc, and individual queer people can absolutely write things that are terribly hurtful to other individual queer people. But on the flip side, because QUILTBAG people aren't a monolith, I think it's equally dangerous to dismiss or invalidate any individual QUILTBAG writer's lived experience that they want to write about. That's how we get things reduced to singular, narrow narratives, which I think is more dangerous than anything.

KTC, I'm sorry you had such a crappy beta experience. I LOVE having betas and wouldn't be half the writer I am without them, but I'm also excessively picky about my betas, and am very particular about making sure they're on my wavelength and on board with what I'm trying to do (and thus will help me do it better, not try to stomp all over me). From your description, I think I would've dropped your first readers like hot potatoes and sought out others. (Oh, and in re: the above, I hope it doesn't come across that I'm trying to speak for you or anything; I know sometimes it's frustrating to have to come back and explain oneself to people who aren't regulars in this room, but if I've misstepped I'll delete. )

Thank you very much for this post. It was perfect.

KTC · Oct 29, 2015

J.S.F. said:
slhuang, I'm aware of KTC's orientation. I have no problem with him being in the LGBTQI community at all. (And I'm going to assume he doesn't anything have against me being in the cisgender male and straight community). I merely pointed out that criticism by anyone over anything comes with the territory of having penned a work for the general public. As I mentioned in my prior post, I found that some reviewers in the LGBTQI set were a tad more critical of my novels. No, not all. Some. This is my case and mine alone. YMMV. I truly wish him well with his latest endeavor, as I do any writer, and I can only hope they say the same for me.

I love criticism. It was mean-spirited mis-directed criticism for the sake of soap-boxing. I ran a critique group in my home for over ten years. I respect helpful criticism. I am so unmarried to my work that I almost always find criticism helpful. Trust me, this was not criticism based on my writing. It was from a place of ugliness and pissedoffedness. Of course I'm not a pretty flower who cannot take constructive criticism. I've been doing so healthily for decades. And others have said it's the best thing I have ever written. Even those gave me great criticism feedback. I'm saying the LGBTQ readers I used couldn't see the forest for the trees. I can't trust them.

J.S.F. · Oct 29, 2015

KTC said:
I love criticism. It was mean-spirited mis-directed criticism for the sake of soap-boxing. I ran a critique group in my home for over ten years. I respect helpful criticism. I am so unmarried to my work that I almost always find criticism helpful. Trust me, this was not criticism based on my writing. It was from a place of ugliness and pissedoffedness. Of course I'm not a pretty flower who cannot take constructive criticism. I've been doing so healthily for decades. And others have said it's the best thing I have ever written. Even those gave me great criticism feedback. I'm saying the LGBTQ readers I used couldn't see the forest for the trees. I can't trust them.

---

I'll have to take your word for it on the mean-spirited criticism you got. I'm not being snide. I'm just saying that this report is coming from your POV and not theirs. Saying you don't trust them...was it because they didn't like what you wrote or because they crapped on the viewpoint or they didn't agree with you? Again, not being snide. I haven't read your work so I'm in no position to judge, but there are two sides to every coin.

When I started writing lesfic--and I haven't written much, just a trilogy and a soon-to-be-released adult paranormal thriller--I got a lot of questions at first from the lesbian community. "Why are you writing lesfic?" "Why didn't you tell us you were a guy?" "Why didn't you tell us you were straight?" Those were the kinds of questions I heard. No, not from everyone, but from a vocal few. And I don't blame them. It is somewhat unusual for a straight guy to write lesfic, and the Robyn Rouseau (sp?) episode must have been prominent in their minds. My answer: I had an idea and I went with it.

Same deal when I wrote Picture (Im)perfect, which deals with a transgender character, but also involves the LG community to a lesser extent. I'm not transgender, so how could I deal with this kind of subject matter? Again, it's a fair question, and my answer was "It's an idea, and I'm dealing with it by doing research and trying to be as honest and empathetic as possible." I wonder, if I were gay would the responses have been the same? I honestly don't know. What I do know is I expected someone would find fault with what I wrote or would question my motivation for writing such a novel. This is what will happen no matter what one writes.

It is a shame that you had to go through the crap you went through, but the way I look at it, there are mean-spirited people and trolls everywhere. The only thing to do is to keep writing. Just my take and I hope your book does well.

Roger J Carlson · Oct 29, 2015

KTC said:
I have an LGBTQ young adult novel with my agent right now... My overall experience with early readers was an eye-opening experience. From here on in, I think I might be done with early readers...

One of the frustrations of writing for young readers (early through YA) is that you have to write for two different audiences.

Your first audience are adults -- publishing professionals like agents and publishers who think they know what young readers will like. To a lesser extent, depending on the young reader's age, are adults who buy books to give to young readers who often think they know what young readers should like. When either of these adult groups have soap-box issues (think christian reaction to Harry Potter), their criticisms can have nothing to do with the story or it's suitability for kids.

And then, of course, you have your real audience -- kids -- who may never get to read and enjoy what you write because of filtering by your adult audience.

It's still all valuable data, though. Even unfounded negative criticisms prepare you for that reaction even if the majority love it. Because, unless the negative criticism is personal, it's likely that someone else will share it.

kuwisdelu · Oct 29, 2015

KTC said:
It was CHIP ON THE SHOULDER bullshit. It was not coming from the right place. I know what I'm talking about. Don't assume.

While I have some vague, general idea of what you're talking about from my experiences with the Native community, I wonder if you could be more specific about the chip-on-shoulder bullshit, if you're comfortable being more specific?

LJD · Oct 29, 2015

I have trouble reading and knowing how to critiquing something that is both close to my own life and feels very personal. It's hard for me to separate myself from my personal experiences sufficiently to do so. Whenever I read about such things, I am constantly comparing them to my own experiences and wanting the book to be more like my own, even though we are all different. For me, this is mainly for things related to suicide/mental illness, but I can see how it could pertain to other experiences that people may have had, relating to being LGBT or PoC.

akaria · Oct 29, 2015

KTC said:
Whoa now. I love criticism. Don't make it about me. It was definitely about them. It was CHIP ON THE SHOULDER bullshit. It was not coming from the right place. I know what I'm talking about. Don't assume.

KTC, I don't know you. I don't hang out in QUILTBAG, so I didn't know you were part of the community. I came here because of a post in POC. Don't jump down my throat because I said maybe you have a blindspot. It's possible to be part of a marginalized group and still have blindspots. While I'm Black, I'm not African or Caribbean and defintely have blindspots when it comes to specifics in their cultures.

I agree with slhuang that a new group of betas is definitely needed. I hope you have better luck with them.

kuwisdelu · Nov 4, 2015

I think my next story will be about a bigender character.

Let's see what the class does with that.

This semester easily has the most diverse characters I've ever seen in a creative writing class.

Edit: Crap. This means I have to think of two names for my main character!

Latina Bunny · Dec 28, 2015

KTC said:
This is one thing I will never go outside myself for again. Ever. I find, through personal experience, that it becomes almost violent quickly.

I have an LGBTQ young adult novel with my agent right now...it's out on submission. The LGBT readers who read it were more arrogantly dismissive and hostile about norms and constructs and shit than my non-LGBT readers were. It was, in a word or two--- FUCKING RIDICULOUS. My overall experience with early readers was an eye-opening experience. From here on in, I think I might be done with early readers. Otherwise, I'd have to be done with writing. Yes...this is a slam. I was brought to the edge of chucking a manuscript my agent later got an agent hard-on for. It remains to be seen what will happen with it...but I kept it as it was and ignored the LGBTQ rants and incensed ridiculousness.

I'm sorry you had a bad beta experience, KTC.

It sounds like you got an agent interested, so that's good!

I wish you lots of luck on your ms!

I don't know what "fucking ridiculous" feedback was, but I think some people can be overly critical sometimes.

(Lol, I know I can be more critical when it comes to female and LGBT characters, being female myself, and being tired of the same old female archetypes and heteronormative shit.)

I wish you luck on your future projects, and do the best you can. Go with your gut. Not everything that works for one person will work for another.

LGBT people, like any human group, are not a monolith (like another poster mentioned). Even amongst the LGBTQA communities, there are disagreements, biases, prejudice, etc, so...

Anyway. No story is perfect enough to satisfy everyone, so focus on writing a story that you yourself would enjoy.

James Ryan · Aug 25, 2017

slhuang said:
Er, y'all know that KTC is IN the LGBTQI community, right? (Which he talks about publicly in this forum, in case anyone misinterprets this as outing. I found his post on Pride earlier this year particularly touching.) I gather when he says he will "never go outside [himself]" for this stuff again that instead of asking for QUILTBAG betas he's going to lean on his own lived experience in that area.

Like any group, queer people aren't a monolith, etc etc, and individual queer people can absolutely write things that are terribly hurtful to other individual queer people. But on the flip side, because QUILTBAG people aren't a monolith, I think it's equally dangerous to dismiss or invalidate any individual QUILTBAG writer's lived experience that they want to write about. That's how we get things reduced to singular, narrow narratives, which I think is more dangerous than anything.

KTC, I'm sorry you had such a crappy beta experience. I LOVE having betas and wouldn't be half the writer I am without them, but I'm also excessively picky about my betas, and am very particular about making sure they're on my wavelength and on board with what I'm trying to do (and thus will help me do it better, not try to stomp all over me). From your description, I think I would've dropped your first readers like hot potatoes and sought out others. (Oh, and in re: the above, I hope it doesn't come across that I'm trying to speak for you or anything; I know sometimes it's frustrating to have to come back and explain oneself to people who aren't regulars in this room, but if I've misstepped I'll delete. )[/QUOTE)

Wonderful point! I especially agree with the idea that it is far more useful to get a beta that knows where you are coming from and trying to go with your writing. It is also exceedingly difficult to do something amazing and have it translate to people from your marginalized group. Those folks will drag you more then anyone else. Those folks want to see you doing things you either might not want to do or may simply not be good at doing or your want to do but aren't there yet. Does that mean you shouldn't write? I would say no, that means you write for your audience, whoever that might be. It also might mean that you don't write that story because it might not be yours to tell. There is not so fine line between being constructive and trying to harm.

James Ryan · Aug 25, 2017

kuwisdelu said:
So we critiqued the story with the black trans girl character today.

The author is actually pretty great; though other members of the class worried me at times.

At one point, the author mentioned wanting the girl to "save" her white cisgender male narrator (as in magic pixie dream black trans girl "save"), and in my head, I started thinking "no, no, no."

The story ends ambiguously after she is attacked, and others started making suggestions about how the narrator could change as a result of her death, and in my head, I started screaming "NO, NO, NO!"

I waited until they were done before strongly advising against her death for the sake of the narrator's development.

Fortunately, the author had no intentions of killing her, so then I merely suggested to please give the character her own resolution in the end.

Is it odd that the "no, no, no" reminded me of the movie "Get Out"? which is somewhat applicable to what you are saying.

AW Admin · Aug 25, 2017

This thread is two years old; I'm locking it.

Critiquing QUILTBAG and PoC characters

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

akaria

J.S.F.

Red fish, blue fish...

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.

J.S.F.

Red fish, blue fish...

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

J.S.F.

Red fish, blue fish...

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

LJD

akaria

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Latina Bunny

Lover of Contemporary/Fantasy Romance (she/her)

James Ryan

James Ryan

AW Admin