Critiquing QUILTBAG and PoC characters

I fall into the "isn't you" category. I'm your average white, straight cisgender male, so when it comes to writing PoC or quiltbag characters, obviously I'm at a disadvantage. When it comes to critiquing other writers, I look for anything that might smack of a stereotype. And I look for empathy with the situation those quiltbag characters may find themselves in.

As for any negative experiences, one other writer wanted to write about a lesbian character. In the past, I've written lesfic (a trilogy and an adult novel soon to be released) and this person asked me to look at his manuscript. I saw only stereotypes and told him. He got a little angry at first, but then revamped it and his second try looked much better. I don't think he meant to put those stereotypes in there, but he did.

As a sidenote, the only odd reply I got was from a reviewer for my YA novel Picture (im)perfect. They liked the novel in an overall sense, critiqued it fairly, I thought (although I wished for a higher rating...c'est la vie) but mentioned that they'd like to have seen more sex in the novel. Is that supposed to be a prereq or something? I did have a sex scene in there, quite chaste because I stink at writing sex scenes so I use the fade-to-black technique, but apparently they wanted more. Ah well...

I think sometimes it's useful to approach these issues as a sort of "fellow traveller", if that makes sense, and sometimes I overplay my own confusion or uncertainty. "I'm not really sure about this, and I want to do some more reading, but I'm wondering if maybe it's not a great idea to have your serial killer be the only gay character in the book? I'm pretty sure I've read commentary from gay readers and critics that they find that problematic." Or whatever.

I'm not sure if I can really recommend this approach, because it's not really honest, I guess, and it's maybe one of those "tee hee, silly little me" moments that I should stop doing as a woman who believes strongly in feminism, but... I think it works, sometimes.

This is an excellent topic. I'm straight and white, but I consider myself an ally and definitely don't want to constrain my writing and characters to just people "like me," (and even my white, straight, cisgendered women aren't going to be like me in many respects, especially since I write stories set in fantasy cultures that aren't identical to my own).

I hope that if someone points out an issue with a character, I can listen with an open heart and mind. Who that criticism is coming from makes a difference to me.
So maybe this segues to the question I'd have if someone critiques a QUILTBAG (or PoC) character I've created for one of my fantasy stories and finds some problems.

1. Did I hit an offensive stereotype without meaning to?

2. Or do you feel this character is missing a core perspective, feeling, trait or attitude that all people from their demographic would have, regardless of setting or story culture.

3. Or do you feel that I've done a poor job of presenting the qualities, traits, perspectives this person would likely have as a member of their group given the realities of the world I've placed them in (which may be very different from ours in some ways)?

4. Or is the story culture itself inconsistent or unconvincing with regards to its treatment or attitudes regarding QULTBAG people or people who are from minority or outsider cultural or racial groups?

5. Is there another potential issue I'm completely unaware of?

Because the answers here will determine how I approach trying to fix the issue.

And the last three questions are ones that are of considerable interest to me, because I write secondary world fantasy, and I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice here re the integration of real-world issues that are relatable to people who are QUILTBAG into fantasy cultures versus making worlds where the historical issues facing people who aren't straight in our own simply aren't there and that allow readers who are QUILTBAG (and straight too) to escape to a place where these things don't matter.

I've read agent wishes that seem to conflict in this way--some say they want to see more stories where characters just so happen to be gay or lesbian and it's not a big issue, where others say they hate stories where characters' orientations feel tacked on or beside the point and carry no significance.

I think the challenge lies in the fact that most of us won't get feedback from a large number of people who are QUILTBAG, so (once we get past the obvious things, like negative stereotypes or things we can look up on TV tropes) it can be hard to know if a particular criticism is just a single person's opinion based on what they personally would like to see more or less of versus something that's a more widespread concern among readers who are QUILTBAG.

As a writer, I'd like to know how to parse the advice I get. As a critiquer, I try to assume good intentions when I see another white, straight person falling into what I think are cliches or stereotypes that might be hurtful. The tragic gay hero trope comes to mind. The problem, of course, lies in explaining that it's not that gay characters should never be tragic or die in plots, but that for so long that seemed to be the only sympathetic role they could have, and it's especially problematic if that's the role the only significant gay character fills in a story.

I feel less confident articulating changes about attitude or culture that don't seem right to me, aside from sometimes pointing out that there's no reason why a fantasy culture that lacks the sexual hang ups or taboos our culture does for straight people would still have the same problems with gay and lesbian characters.

I think the tough thing is that one, a lot of people who are not part of the minority group(s) in questions want very clear, black and white "rules" about what makes representation good or bad, and two, a lot of people take warnings and suggestions about how they represent minority characters as censorship.

I think if I were approaching a situation where I felt someone's portrayal was stereotypical/offensive, but they said that their "black gay friend" was okay with it, I would affirm that yes, maybe their friend doesn't see a problem and that is valid, but some black or gay people do find portrayals like that stereotypical, and here's why. A writer can't please everyone, but they should know the context in which they're writing and have an idea of how things will be interpreted by some of the audience. I think once someone understands the diversity of experiences in communities such as the LGBTQ one and thinks a bit about how members of those communities have been portrayed in the media, it can become easier to understand why care is necessary or why taking a less stereotypical route might make the story stronger.

I think you're right, and the desire for clear-cut rules that state when something is good or bad in writing isn't confined to portrayals of race or sexual orientation and identity.

One of my own boners was shortly after I'd been involved in some heartfelt discussions about representation and had done a lot of reading blogs by writers who were PoC and going to sites like We Need Diverse Books and so on, all of which were pretty adamant that color blind=racist and the whole "don't mention race thing and allow the reader to insert their own race onto the characters" suggestion was really just something white people do to reassure themselves they're not racist when they are.

So I run into someone on another writer's forum who was making the color blind arguments and suggesting that writers not mention race but just allow readers to make up their own mind etc. Assuming he was white, I told him I'd never met a PoC who felt that way and that promoting color blindness was really racist etc.

He sent me a picture of himself. He's black. At that point, I wondered if it's even my place to express opinions about these kinds of things at all. But the thing is, I still think color blind writing is problematic, for the reasons expressed elsewhere. I've run across LGBTQ writers on forums who agree with the make orientation invisible unless it's vital to the plot angle too. Their reason is they've seen gay and lesbian and bisexual characters mangled so badly by straight people that they'd rather be invisible than misrepresented so. They've pretty much concluded that it's not possible for straight people to write people like them in a way that's not hurtful.

This is one of those things about being an ally. Just when you think you're finally understanding things, you stick your foot in your mouth and realize the issues are much more complex and people have different opinions.

kuwisdelu said:

These days, my PoC-ness is relatively obvious, but my QUILTBAG-ness isn't.

When do you bring your identity into your critique if it isn't already "out"?

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I certainly find it useful when someone gives me feedback and suggestions based on their personal experience, rather than just being another well-meaning ally who reads a lot about the various issues and pitfalls.

There is a type of person who writes other cultures who has very definite ideas about how they want their stories to be, and they can get quite hostile when someone questions something about them. One guy I remember went on a rant about how the only people he knows who care about cultural appropriation and insensitive stereotypes are white, straight liberals (it wasn't in response to a crit he'd received, but during a general discussion about cultural appropriation). Maybe being told that some people who aren't white, straight liberals are also concerned about these things would make an impression.

So maybe just prefacing, as someone who identifies as...

When I crit people's writing over the web I might say something like, "As a woman, I can't help noticing that all your female characters are stunningly gorgeous and young, but your male ones were more varied," or "I notice that you have almost no female characters aside from the occasional tavern wench," or in a surprising number of cases, "I notice your magic school (or even world) has no women at all. Is there a reason for this?"

DancingMaenid said:

I think the tough thing is that one, a lot of people who are not part of the minority group(s) in questions want very clear, black and white "rules" about what makes representation good or bad, and two, a lot of people take warnings and suggestions about how they represent minority characters as censorship.

I think if I were approaching a situation where I felt someone's portrayal was stereotypical/offensive, but they said that their "black gay friend" was okay with it, I would affirm that yes, maybe their friend doesn't see a problem and that is valid, but some black or gay people do find portrayals like that stereotypical, and here's why. A writer can't please everyone, but they should know the context in which they're writing and have an idea of how things will be interpreted by some of the audience. I think once someone understands the diversity of experiences in communities such as the LGBTQ one and thinks a bit about how members of those communities have been portrayed in the media, it can become easier to understand why care is necessary or why taking a less stereotypical route might make the story stronger.

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Nice post!

kuwisdelu said:

Another thing I've been thinking about is when and whether to discuss your own identity while critiquing.

Over the internet, we're only who we say we are.

But in person, certain aspects are obvious, while others aren't.

These days, my PoC-ness is relatively obvious, but my QUILTBAG-ness isn't.

When do you bring your identity into your critique if it isn't already "out"?

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When I feel comfortable enough to do so. I'm not "out" to many people in my life. Only to a few family members. (I work in a conservative school environment and live in a conservative environment, so I have to stay closeted.)

For the critique, I would have to know the person really well, or at least, know about their general attitudes towards QUILTBAG people, before deciding to "out" myself. I also have to take into consideration if I can trust a person enough to not feel like the person will "out" me to others.

I'm both gullible and distrustful of people. (A contradiction, I know.) It's one of those things I have to decide whether or not I should take the risk.

In a critique situation, I would probably just point out that other LGBTQA people would have a problem with the fictional representation. If a person feels like that I wouldn't know anything about LGBTQA thing, I would do the whole "I have a LGBTQA" friend or have a LGBTQA family member excuse, lol. Yes, I know. Somewhat distasteful and it's sort of a white lie, but technically I do know a LGBTQA person (myself, lol).

If I feel that the person doesn't get it by then, then I would probably just drop it (and probably ignore that person for the rest of the session while I get my temper under check because I'm a moody bunny, lol).

ETA: If the story was about another "Other" that's not LGBTQA, then I would still point out the problematic areas, and also, like DancingMaenid said, mention that other "Other" people would have problems with those problematic areas. If the person I'm critiquing still doesn't get it, then again, I would drop it (and steam for a bit).

kuwisdelu said:

Phew. I just finished writing a critique of a story featuring a pansexual black trans girl.

I love and admire the author's motivations and spirit, but the whole thing reads like an after-school special.

I'm all for positive representations of QUILTBAG and PoC characters, but there's such as thing as too Mary Sue.

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This seems like an excellent critique.

This is a great discussion topic--thanks, Kuwi!

For my part, since I don't read/write a lot of "issue" stories, the question for me becomes, in what way does this characters identity affect their role in the story and plot? I have one character in particular who's black, but I don't think I've mentioned it in the text, and I haven't figured out how to say she's black without it coming off like, "Oh, by the way." (It's tricky as well because the first time my POV character "meets" her he can't see, and later recognizes her by her voice--long story.)

And here's the other thing: I have a lot of magical/supernatural elements in all my stuff, since it's mostly standalone novels in the same shared universe, densely populated with LGBTQA+ people and POCs, but I'm still wary of certain tropes and wonder if it still counts. Like, if the vast majority of characters in a given story have magical powers, does the Magical Negro trope still apply, or does it not count since EVERYONE is magical in some way? Also if said possible Magical Negro is far from the only POC in the cast?

That's the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. I feel like I might be overthinking it. (Any excuse to procrastinate, right?)

Rhoda Nightingale said:

, if the vast majority of characters in a given story have magical powers, does the Magical Negro trope still apply, or does it not count since EVERYONE is magical in some way? Also if said possible Magical Negro is far from the only POC in the cast?

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Erm, I don't think it always mean that minorities have literal magic powers. Magical Negro trope is about how the minorities are put into a (usually "selfless") supporting role whose only purpose is to help or guide the (usually white) central character.

Can be done with or without magic.

"Friendly black optimistic advice"— A Trailer For Every Academy Award Winning Movie Ever

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^Ah--that makes more sense. I guess since the type of movies I watch tend to have actual magical things going on most of the time...

I think when critiquing people's characters it's important to look at what part the character plays in the story. Let's say there's an overweight, sassy Black woman. Total stereotype if she's the white MC's sidekick/best friend. If she's leader of a team of assassins or love interest of a billionaire hero I might give the character more room to develop.

I don't have a problem with stereotypical traits. Heavy, mouthy, Black women exist. My problem is when they are put into the same sidekick, comic relief, best friend, wise woman role. Oh, and mammies. I effin' hate mammies and no woman of any color should suffer such shitty characterization. Well, maybe if she solved cozy mysteries while tending to a widower's children.

*I am a somewhat heavy, opinionated as hell, Black woman

Nah, I'm more like The Wall from DC comics.

This is a really interesting topic.

I've critted POC/QUILTBAG characters loads of times, but most of the time I'm critting for my writing group, who know me really well and are actively seeking that kind of crit. I've gotten two different writer friends to resurrect murdered queer characters, but I think I pretty much just had to point out the trope, not argue it. (Okay, I just looked back and I had plot/character objections to those characters dying, too, and then I *also* said the thing about the "bury your gays" trope in a "I'm not saying not to kill your queer characters EVER, but here I think it's a bad idea to kill them anyway PLUS it's a bad cliche" paragraph.)

More broadly, I actually think it helps me crit that most of the time when I'm critting an underrepresented character that character's identity will not be my own, since there are so MANY ethnicities and orientations. So I'll say something like, "Don't take me as a final authority on this or anything because I'm not black myself, but I do a lot of reading on this sort of thing and [here's what I've read] and/or [here are some links] and/or [it made me uncomfortable to see...]" etc.. If they came back with "my black friend says it's fine", I'd probably say something like, "I might be totally off base then! But yanno, black people are not a monolith, so I'd recommend at least giving these links a read just in case and then seeing where you decide you land on it."

(Oh, and re: the "my friend says it's okay!" thing -- I can't imagine basing my writing on what ONE FRIEND said. I mean, yes that person has lived experience I don't, but I still might disagree with something they think! It's boggling to me that people will base a "this will not be read with unfortunate implications; I'm A-OK" argument on what one friend has told them when people are so different. This is why I encourage other writers to read & listen *widely* to what people with marginalized identities are saying about their own lives and opinions, because how else will you grasp the potential issues well enough to have a semi-informed opinion of what you think your characters should portray?)

Back to the topic: With people I don't know at all I've sometimes pulled the, "it's your story, of course, but I had a bad reaction to this and I think you would likely get criticized for it in reviews" thing, since I think people worry much more about Being Criticized In Public than a critiquer's opinion.

Kuwi's point in post #10 is an interesting one, that being when and whether one should identify oneself as this or that orientation or gender when critiquing. Since I fall into the straight cisgender male camp, I simply look at the characters in the novels as...characters. Are they well-rounded, do they resonate with me in any way, can I feel their plight...that sort of thing. If they are well-rounded characters, my rating for that novel goes up, assuming the narrative and other points are reasonably well done. I don't bother saying "I'm straight" whether I critique a M/M novel (which I've done on occasion in the past) or lesbian fiction or straight YA or whatever; I just look at the story itself.

Funny thing, though, when LGBTQI reviewers have looked at my work (see avi) they tended to be much harsher in their appraisal than presumably straight reviewers (although I never asked and they never bothered telling me which is fine). Maybe they were looking for that stereotype in some small way. I honestly don't know. I try like hell to avoid them, but there are times when I wonder if I have inadvertently included them somewhere along the way. The points made in post #6 are especially important, I feel, when a straight writer approaches a story and doing it from an LGBTQI perspective.

J.S.F. said:

[...]
Funny thing, though, when LGBTQI reviewers have looked at my work (see avi) they tended to be much harsher in their appraisal than presumably straight reviewers (although I never asked and they never bothered telling me which is fine). Maybe they were looking for that stereotype in some small way. I honestly don't know. [...]

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It's certainly possible some are actively looking for those stereotypes in one way or another, but I think it's mostly that it's just so much more noticeable to people who are confronted day in, day out with stereotypes, misinformation and judgement about who they are, what they are, how they are, what they do, etc.

You see it on any subject, though, not just LGBTQI-related matters, or PoC-related matters, or religion or culture or ethnicity-related matters at that. It's for a good part about familiarity with the subject.
Someone whose greatest passion is horse-riding, who has several horses and spends time with them every day is far more likely to point out that no, that horse couldn't have made such a distance in a week without collapsing than the average, not-very-horse-interested reader.
Someone who lives or has lived in Texas is far more likely to point out geographical mistakes, or mistakes in regards to weather and climate, or plant or animal species in the area.
Someone who does speak a specific language is far more likely to notice that you got that foreign swear or exclamation from said language wrong (or right in and of itself, but not at all fitting within the context, or the severity (or lack thereof) of the swear not fitting the setting and character, etc.)

And if those fairly trivial matters can already provoke pretty strong responses in some people when you* get them wrong, even though those mistakes only require some further suspension of disbelief, but do not actually harm anyone, then it definitely makes sense that mistakes, stereotypes and judgement that are (potentially) harmful get picked out, noticed and mentioned even faster, and judged more harshly than, say, a mention of a species of wildflower occurring a 100 miles further south than it can be found in real life.

*general you.

Silenia, good post and thank you for clarifying things. As I said before, I try like hell to avoid ANY stereotype, but always fear that the littlest thing may provoke a reaction from at least one person. That won't stop me from writing, but it does serve to make me more aware of the possibility of messing up with regards to the information I choose to present.

J.S.F. said:

Silenia, good post and thank you for clarifying things. As I said before, I try like hell to avoid ANY stereotype, but always fear that the littlest thing may provoke a reaction from at least one person. That won't stop me from writing, but it does serve to make me more aware of the possibility of messing up with regards to the information I choose to present.

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And probably it will, because different characters are read different ways by different people and where one feels the character is fine as it is, another may well see a particular action, personality flaw, scene or what have you as being influenced by some minor stereotyping, and yet another may read unfortunate implications where most don't. A scene that may be read by one person as the textbook example of good portrayal of a QUILTBAG character may be seen as problematic by another.

That is, sadly, unavoidable. But, to me and I think/hope to most of us, as long as you genuinely try, genuinely research and most of all, genuinely listen if people point out there might be a problem, it is okay. (Well, provided you avoid the really insulting and harmful stereotyping, but then, that's pretty much covered in the "research" part.)

slhuang said:

Back to the topic: With people I don't know at all I've sometimes pulled the, "it's your story, of course, but I had a bad reaction to this and I think you would likely get criticized for it in reviews" thing, since I think people worry much more about Being Criticized In Public than a critiquer's opinion.

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This is what I try to do too. Couching it in terms of my own response and concern for the reaction the writer may get, rather than the old, "I can't believe you're so racist/sexist/heteronormative" angle.

I can only think of one time someone from a different cultural background from myself pointed something out in my story, and I was actually really grateful he did. Because as a writer, I want to be aware of my own unconscious biases.

I don't always know how to ask people from specific backgrounds for feedback about character portrayal or world building either. I do most of my critting and being critted online, and I don't always know for sure what someone's orientation or racial or cultural background is, unless it's already come up and they've told me. And I also worry about actively seeking betas of a given background that's different from myself is something I worry about, because I know that ignorant white, straight people asking to be educated can be a sore point too.