Sex that isn't perfect and has emotional ramifications?

lenore_x said:

With PREP, I believe the reason that's adult and not YA is because the narrator is an adult retelling her teen years. She describes an authentic teen experience (maybe--idk that book gave me the willies), but she speaks with a "but here's what I know now" voice.

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Yes, definitely has that perspective, at the end particularly. Just curious...what about it gave you the willies?

All three of Carrie Mesrobian's books really handle the not-so-perfect sex really well.

I don't think it's that weird for the boy to be concerned and attentive. It's probably less likely for teens because there's less time to encounter that approach to sex as a positive one, as opposed to porn and perfect YA sex, etc. But I think it would be possible to write it. Either they did get some good sex ed, or that's just their character. And I've known people who didn't have regrets about being with their first anymore. Although certainly having those regrets, especially for people raised in certain environments, is not unrealistic, depending on the character.

I usually don't include sex in my YA novels, not because I don't think it should be in YA but just because it doesn't fit in *my* books. I've written some sexually active characters, including one who's extremely sex-positive and not at all ashamed or regretful of her experiences, but their experiences take place before the story so are only alluded to.

But if I did write sex in a story, it would most likely be of the very awkward "are you sure"... "wait, did I do that right"..."damn, I thought this was supposed to be good" variety, because to me, that seems more realistic than the "ooh, that was amazing, hot diggity dog!" type. Actually, as an author that's one of the two main reasons I *don't* put sex in my books; I've proven myself incapable of writing sex between teens without having them angst about it longer than the actual scene takes. (To a much lesser extent, I sometimes struggle with that even between adults in my other pen name's romance books. And if anyone's wondering, the other main reason I don't write sex in my YA is because my own teens and several of their friends have vented to me off and on about not actually wanting to read about other teens having sex... Obviously not a large sampling of the population, but since I know them personally, I chose to write for them.)

Monnrella said:

Well, and I certainly don't want to imply that ALL teen boys are jerks who only want to get it in and get off. I know plenty of adult men who were definitely not that way as teens. I just wondered at the realism of a character such as Jase in MY LIFE NEXT DOOR, where he is seemingly only concerned with how his gf feels during The Act, and then apologizes after comfort sex. I mean, that makes ME feel like a selfish partner myself at times...and I am most definitely not a teenager. But Jase is a Gary Stu, so...not surprising. Also, I know he's not the ONLY character out there. He just seems to be somewhat extreme in his perfection, to the point of when The Awful Thing happens in the book, he easily forgives his gf for lying to him about it. If my husband pulled the crap on me that Samantha pulls on Jase, we would be having some Serious Words. (Has anyone else read this book??)

I obviously didn't date much in high school....

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I didn't date 'til college. And my friendgroup in college was super-feminist. And I was not the smoothest operator, so I read a lot of stuff on feminism and what girls wanted from a female perspective. So that description kind of matches what happened when I first had sex. I realize that that's probably less likely for a high school boy, just because their chances of exposure to that kind of thinking are probably smaller, for various (and unfortunate) reasons. But I do think some guys are like that. It's one way to cope with the confidence and inexperience issues that several posters have talked about seeming common and realistic for teenagers having sex. And as I said, some people might just be that way as a person.

KimJo said:

I usually don't include sex in my YA novels, not because I don't think it should be in YA but just because it doesn't fit in *my* books. I've written some sexually active characters, including one who's extremely sex-positive and not at all ashamed or regretful of her experiences, but their experiences take place before the story so are only alluded to.

But if I did write sex in a story, it would most likely be of the very awkward "are you sure"... "wait, did I do that right"..."damn, I thought this was supposed to be good" variety, because to me, that seems more realistic than the "ooh, that was amazing, hot diggity dog!" type. Actually, as an author that's one of the two main reasons I *don't* put sex in my books; I've proven myself incapable of writing sex between teens without having them angst about it longer than the actual scene takes. (To a much lesser extent, I sometimes struggle with that even between adults in my other pen name's romance books. And if anyone's wondering, the other main reason I don't write sex in my YA is because my own teens and several of their friends have vented to me off and on about not actually wanting to read about other teens having sex... Obviously not a large sampling of the population, but since I know them personally, I chose to write for them.)

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I think there are probably a large proportion of teens who feel like your teens do about sex in YA. I met plenty of that type as a teenager, and plenty of the kind who was interested.

Monnrella said:

Well, and I certainly don't want to imply that ALL teen boys are jerks who only want to get it in and get off. I know plenty of adult men who were definitely not that way as teens. I just wondered at the realism of a character such as Jase in MY LIFE NEXT DOOR, where he is seemingly only concerned with how his gf feels during The Act, and then apologizes after comfort sex. I mean, that makes ME feel like a selfish partner myself at times...and I am most definitely not a teenager. But Jase is a Gary Stu, so...not surprising. Also, I know he's not the ONLY character out there. He just seems to be somewhat extreme in his perfection, to the point of when The Awful Thing happens in the book, he easily forgives his gf for lying to him about it. If my husband pulled the crap on me that Samantha pulls on Jase, we would be having some Serious Words. (Has anyone else read this book??)

I obviously didn't date much in high school....

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I haven't read the book you're talking about, but maybe that book is one of those idealized, wish fulfillment kind of books? It's probably not to your taste, maybe? Or you're not finding the right books?

Just...Find another book. Like maybe one of the books people are recommending in this thread. Simple.

Or write the story as it fits your characters. (Just don't patronize teens or YA readers in general.)

Not all teens react to things in the same way. There are some teens who don't angst about sex, or get emotional about sex and stuff like that*. *shrugs* People are different. Not everyone has the exact same teen experiences.

*ETA: Don't assume everyone feels the same way about sex and/or romance (or about anything else in life), whether they're teens or adults.

Pub Hub, a writing blog I follow, had an interesting post on the subject. Thought I'd provide a link to it so y'all may peruse and judge for yourself.

http://www.publishing-hub.com/2015/10/on-sex-in-ya-and-positive-representation.html

Me, I have yet to write sex scenes. I'd say I never will, but life has taught me that God loves nothing more than upsetting Never statements. It's just that right now, to paraphrase George RR Miller, I can handle writing about an axe going through someone's skull more than a penis going inside someone's vagina. Call me a prude, but that's just how I am.

bombergirl69 said:

Yes, definitely has that perspective, at the end particularly. Just curious...what about it gave you the willies?

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Well, I think it was mostly by design... like, it's a book designed to make you feel uncomfortable about a lot of things. It just all made me squirmy and I had a bad aftertaste. The sex scenes (hey, thread topic!), that part where she dates a townie and dumps him out of shame, the friend breakups, the gee-I-hope-the-black-girl-isn't-the-one-stealing-OH-NO-SHE-IS part, the fact that the whole thing felt like a thinly-veiled memoir... left me with an overall impression of "gross." It was hard to put down, though, I'll give it that.

Emermouse said:

Pub Hub, a writing blog I follow, had an interesting post on the subject. Thought I'd provide a link to it so y'all may peruse and judge for yourself.

http://www.publishing-hub.com/2015/10/on-sex-in-ya-and-positive-representation.html

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Basically, it seems like the blog writer is saying it's not fiction's job to provide safe, positive sex scenes (especially first time sex in YA), and that sex is messy, so it's realistic to show messy, awkward, imperfect sex, etc, etc. Basically, similar to what this thread has been talking about so far.

Yeah, I get it. But not everyone reads for "realism". (Not everything in fiction is totally realistic, anyway. Sometimes, fiction have situations that are a bit over the top, or have situations that are pure coincidence that are convenient to serve the plot, etc. Then there is stuff like dialogue that doesn't sound exactly like real life speech, etc.)

I understand if it feels like there is not enough variety in types of stories and themes, etc, in a category (ie YA). That, I can understand. We definitely need variety in life and in our entertainment.

I just get annoyed with the trying to make every story fit those "realistic" parameters. Or the branding something as bad if it's not "realistic" enough or if it doesn't match a person's personal experience.

I guess the reason it's a bit of a touchy subject for me is because I see these kinds of "realism" complaints from people who don't like the Happily Ever After/Happy For Now endings of Romance genre novels or just don't like Romance genre books (especially fluffy ones) in general. (Or how gay males are portrayed in M/M Romances, etc.)

Sorry for the rambling, lol. It's one of my personal peeves, especially as a reader of the less "realistic"/gritty/edgy stuff, and fan of fluffy Romances and fluffy fiction in general.

Meh.

I feel like there's a lot of conflation of a lot of different ideas and a lot of different terms, both in this thread and in that blog post.

For example, to me "sex positivism" just means "sex isn't portrayed as a negative thing" when obviously, that blogger interprets it differently.

No part of life is perfect, and even in escapist fiction, it's boring when the characters are too perfect.

There is certainly a place for realism, idealism, escapism, and all of the -ism's in fiction. I don't even think they're mutually exclusive at all.

One person's ideal might be another person's reality.

I do think authors carry a certain amount of social responsibility, but it amounts to not hurting people unnecessarily.

lenore_x said:

Well, I think it was mostly by design... like, it's a book designed to make you feel uncomfortable about a lot of things. It just all made me squirmy and I had a bad aftertaste. The sex scenes (hey, thread topic!), that part where she dates a townie and dumps him out of shame, the friend breakups, the gee-I-hope-the-black-girl-isn't-the-one-stealing-OH-NO-SHE-IS part, the fact that the whole thing felt like a thinly-veiled memoir... left me with an overall impression of "gross." It was hard to put down, though, I'll give it that.

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Right! As I remember, been a while, she is a complex character and not necessarily likeable. She also teases that teacher and is so desperate to be included in the cool group she's not so nice to her great roommate who backs her through everything! Not at all my experience in any way at boarding school (although plenty of sex, drugs and rock n roll) but I did like how the author captured that awkward, insecure-I'm-never-going-to-fit-in angst, including the sex!

If I was reading a book about horses, or mechanics and the MC, with no experience whatsoever, had a perfect clean round and won the show, or fixed the car with no help or guidance the first time, I would have a problem with that. I think it's a little like that reading about two young teens with no experience magically figuring things out the first time. Possible? Sure. But I do think it's far more common that there is awkwardness- is this...? Do I...? Oh sorry!

A bit off topic, but did Twilight ever explore the emotional ramifications of the sex scene? The one where Bella blacked out or had her back hurt or something? I know Twilight is a wish fulfillment fantasy kind of story, but I wonder if that scene was ever addressed later in the story. (Talk about "awkward" sex, lol!)

I have read all the novels and alas, she did not.

It was all about the sex being awesome and no one ever saw a problem with vampire Edward having sex with human Bella, with all the resulting consequences... except for the reasonably concerned Jacob, but it was waved off as jealousy, and the overdramatic Edward himself, which was waved off as him being so gentelmanly. It was kind of hilarious how he could not bear the thought that he had hurt his delicate flower of a perfect wife and this apparently meant that they should not have sex EVER. Seriously, there was a lengthy passage in the books about how Bella thought up various strategies to get Ed to bed, including beating him at chess and wearing skimpy outfits (apparently packed for her by Alice). She finally succeeded, of course, but I don't remember how.

So no, this was not addressed, at least not properly.

I have some insanely raunchy sex scenes in a WIP that I'm not sure would pass the muster in a YA book, even though they're awkward and hilarious.

TMI warning





Like, one male teen wants to penetrate another male teen, who's an awkward virgin, and they wind up using greasy stage makeup as lube... then the virgin's father walks in, while the MC unfortunately is stuck and orgasming. Chaos ensues.

I write "idealized" sex scenes in YA. But here's the thing---I personally had a fantastic first experience and don't see why I should feel compelled to put that aside. It's really the VARIETY of experience that we need in YA. Not one specific type.

I will say that I think there should be emotional ramifications to sex. Whether positive or negative, and whether it's even a big deal or not, I do think it ultimately impacts something. It's not happening in a bubble. (well, maybe it is! lol)

Hi, I'm new here but had to join in. I'm currently writing a YA novel, and sex isn't the center of the story, but it plays an important role in the characters. To me, it strengthens some strong emotions -- and not all of them positive.

One of my main characters has severe self esteem issues and isolates himself from others. He has difficulty relating to people on any level at all. He's very sexually repressed to the point that he never allows himself to think about it.

A very charismatic and social girl decides that he's a diamond in the rough and tries to fix him up and turn him into a boyfriend. He's thrilled with the attention and is terrified of losing her because he thinks she's too good for him. He loosens up and gets more confidence, but she's much more experienced than him. He ends up having sex because he's afraid she'll leave him if he doesn't. She says he'll like it. He doesn't like it. The relationship fizzles shortly after.

I don't write anything explicit, nor do I use flowery vague prose. I still think it's very clear to anyone with any sexual experience to figure out exactly what went wrong under the sheets. It's messy and awkward and he gets the dreaded, "Don't worry. It happens to everyone" speech.


A conservative friend of mine asked me if the sex scene was really needed. I said that I thought it was the best way to highlight his emotional struggle with trying to connect to someone. It's finally clear to himself that he's not ready to handle this relationship, no matter how much he wants it to work.

He eventually gets his act together and is ready for sex. I haven't written that yet, but I will write it in the same style that I did the first time. It may be physically awkward but he's going to be excited about it and he'll try to get in as much practice as possible to get it perfect. I want my readers as excited as he is about it.

Some people seem to think teens never think about sex until they read about it in a book. It never occurs to them that they are already thinking about it, and that's why they are reading about it. Reading about sex is the safest way to experience sex. You get all of the excitement and emotional thrills, but none of the responsibility or hassles of experimenting with a real person. I think teens who read about sex probably make wiser decisions about sex than teens who don't.

Monnrella said:

1.) What tired old tropes are you sick of? The girl who pushes the guy who just can't because he doesn't want to ruin their friendship or doesn't want to ruin her or whatever the whole Edward/Bella thing was (never read it)? The guy who berates himself for giving in to his primal urges and angsts over it? The guy who is too perfect and wants to give her the perfect first time? The couple who thinks it's not a huge deal, and life goes on as it always has? The innocent virgin girl? I had more thoughts (and a spiffy, zingy way of expressing all these thoughts, but alas, they died somewhere in the recesses of my brain).

2.) What is there not enough of? What would you like to see? I've read a number of sex scenes in YA, and a good chunk are handled well, while a good chunk are handled horribly (IMO). What are we NOT seeing? What could there be more of? (And I don't mean this in the very broad sense of, "It would be great if there were more LGBTQ sex scenes" or "There need to be more masturbation scenes," etc. I'm speaking specifically about a specific sexual encounter, not the topic as a whole.)

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1) Good Girl falls for the Bad Boy and he changes into the dream boyfriend because of her influence, usually resulting in her losing her virginity to him. Also, a man's (usually he's portrayed as geeky) constant sexual comments and advances are brushed off as cute or harmless because he and the woman he's lusting after are (old) friends.

2) Positive portrayals of consent. Character A is comfortable with doing ___ but not ___ and Character B understands and accepts Character A's limits. Or Character A thinks she/he is ready to try ___ but realizes while it's happening that she/he isn't ready or it's not a pleasurable experience and when she/he tells Character B, Character B immediately stops and doesn't try to shame or guilt Character A for leading them on or not following through with that specific sexual act.